Thursday, February 03, 2011

Sent to the Hospital Over a Twitter Photo

Cultural Enrichment News

A young girl in the Netherlands was beaten up by her culturally enriched schoolmates after a racy photo of her was posted on Twitter.

The material below comes from the Amsterdam TV channel AT5. Many thanks to Bolleke for the original tip, Sagunto for translating both the news article and the video, and to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:

Girl (13) violated over Twitter photo

A thirteen-year-old girl was beaten up and sent to the hospital last Friday, after a conflict about a Twitter photo.

The victim is a student at Huygens College, a VMBO* high school in the Amsterdam West area. A classmate posted a somewhat juicy picture on Twitter.

According to a police spokesman, the school subsequently witnessed a “tense atmosphere” between two opposing groups. Meanwhile, on Twitter the verbal abuse went on as well. The police paid two visits to the Huygens College, together with the community-coordinator [PC lingo for: local agent] in order to calm things down.

At first this seemed to work, but later that day things turned ugly nevertheless. The girl had been sent home as a precaution, but later on she went back to school to voice her displeasure. At the Overtoom [street in Amsterdam], the girl suffered a bruised vertebra during a violent confrontation that took place between the two groups. She received treatment in hospital and has returned home.

In a comment to AT5 [Amsterdam local news channel] she says she’s terrified of returning to school.

The other girl in the picture is a student from a school in the Amsterdam-Noord area. There are reports that she also has been threatened.

Note:

* VMBO = preparatory Community College, lowest level. Many Dutch VMBO schools in major cities are dominated by Muslim youth.

A subtitled video of the accompanying AT5 news report is below the jump, along with a transcript:


Transcript:

00:01 This is the photo that started it.
00:03 Someone put this picture on the internet and started the whole affair.
00:07 One of the girls on the photo is a 13-year-old student
00:10 at the Huygens College in [Amsterdam] West.
00:12 The photo caused a lot of waves at school and even a fight,
00:15 in which the student was beaten up by other students on Overtoom street.
00:19 The incident still is the talk of the day at the preparatory Community College school
00:22 and guarantees fierce comments.
00:25 They were with a lot of people, standing over there… said they’d beat up a girl um…
00:28 I don’t know for … acting tough or like I don’t know…
00:30 [Other girl: — why do you do that? i.e. cooperate]
00:31 And then she got like hit or whatever…
00:32 I heard that she got beaten pretty badly…
00:36 Do you think that’s right?
00:37 Yes. — Why?
00:39 Because… [pauses] slutty behavior must be punished.
00:44 The girl has been taken to hospital with a bruised vertebra, among other things.
00:49 The director of the Huygens College knows what happened to his student,
00:52 but he is unsure about the direct cause of the molestation.
00:55 What caused this fight?
00:57 Well, it must be that MSN stuff, I think.
01:00 But um… I won’t comment on that, because it’s police matter now and it is under investigation.
01:03 It was about a um… somewhat sexy photo I’ve heard, that would have been put on the internet?
01:08 I have no knowledge of that.
01:09 According to the students the fight was caused by the Twitter photo.
01:15 They put a photo of hers on Twitter. I heard it was because of that pic or whatever…
01:19 But what kind of photo was it then?
01:21 A photo that didn’t show like much clothes and all.
01:24 She is just kinda acting like… slutty, and then um… things like these happen.
01:29 Kinda slutty? Yeah, slutty… um, just a pic that showed her in ladies’ wear with some other chick.
01:35 Oh right, and that would be slutty behavior?
01:37 Yeah, that’s slutty behavior.
01:39 But what’s against that?
01:39 I dunno, I got nothing to do with that.
01:42 These days people [??] a bit far, but that is her own problem, but ok…
01:45 [The other girl indicating she should stop]
01:46 But isn’t that upsetting? ’Cause I believe she really got beat up badly.
01:50 Yeah for sure, she was even sent to the hospital.
01:52 Yes, and that is normal? No. [Other girls: Come on!]
01:54 Meanwhile the 13-year-old girl is home again.
01:57 She is terrified of going back to school.
01:59 Tomorrow the matter will be discussed between her and the board of the Huygens College.


For a complete listing of previous enrichment news, see The Cultural Enrichment Archives.

36 comments:

latté island said...

The passivity and lack of curiosity of the young people is surprising. Are they ethnic Dutch or immigrants? I didn't see any blonds in the vid, but not all Dutch are blond. Hard to say, but they don't look like obvious foreigners either, because of their modern dress. Either way, not good, as they will be voting soon.

Is there also some aspect of homophobia? I can't see the pic clearly, but it looks like the type of trendy faux-lesbian pose girls do to get attention from boys. If this is true, gay groups should be all over this, because even if the girls are straight, and they probably are, they've been punished rather severely for acting gay.

Sagunto said...

@latté,

They are all (3rd gen.) immigrants, not one single native Dutch in sight. Ethnic Dutch are mostly blond and blue eyed, they can have dark hair but never black, like these kids. So yes, they do look like obvious foreigners (to the Dutch eye) in a distinct modern dress (notice the furry hoods). Once their grandparents were called "buitenlanders" (foreigners), their parents are called "autochtonen" (PC lingo for: buitenlanders) and they themselves are called "allahtonen" or members of the "Allah-Jugend".
Their behavior is not passive, by the way, they are acting in a triumphalist way with feigned disinterest, and possible lapses of truthfulness are kept in check (the girl indicating to stop; asking "why cooperate?"). What really happens is that they are taking the PC MC interviewer for a ride, and the poor sucker doesn't even notice.

In the transcript provided, I tried to preserve the bad mastery of the Dutch language by these 3rd generation Moroccan immigrants. The transcript in the article above could leave you with the impression that they speak normal Dutch. They don't. The final version of the English transcript should have contained more street slang, but I'm afraid I don't master the are of translating bad Dutch into bad English well enough ;-)

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Sagunto said...

For a sample of ethnic Dutch, take a look at this (partly politically correct, but hey..) commercial.

The man in the clip is a famous Dutch speed skating world- and Olympic champion, given back his hair. The women are, well.. champions in their own right.

The commercial is for cheese and it's about "the ideal world". Interestingly the dissonant (Fatima) is brought as something that can be tolerated in a sea of blond and blue. Like we live in the old days again, when Muslim immigrants were still a rare phenomenon.

On second thought this add might not be all that PC after all.

Sag.

Sagunto said...

errata first post:

are = art

But a major blunder on my part in explaining the PC idiom:

autochtonen = allochtonen (as PC lingo for foreigners)

Sag.

goethechosemercy said...

So the girl's mates chose to "discipline" her.
Take a look at the exercise of informal authority. Kind of like the Ku Klux Klan with an uppity "nigra".
Either strengthen the enforcement of formal laws requiring tolerance, the tolerance of young Dutch girls, or throw these scum out of the country.
Or, I suppose, you could just live with this kind of informal "morality enforcement" for the foreseeable future.
But you get my meaning, right?

Zenster said...

Holland is supposedly renowned for its sexual liberation. The intimacy displayed in that photo was relatively modest, even for teens or pre-teens. Unless I am mistaken, there did not even seem to be any partial nudity or anything remotely approaching it.

So, where are the vocal accusations of “backwards Puritanism” and “inappropriate moralizing”? Has it come to this that a bunch of whingeing barbarians are allowed to regulate life and dictate morals in the modern age? If limits are to be set, shouldn’t they be imposed upon how far these iron-age savages can intrude upon the civilized world?

Sagunto said...

Zenster -

Let me try to paint the fuller picture here. About the victim: the girl's name is Hajar. I'm not sure whether you did, but some readers might have gotten the impression that a Dutch girl was attacked.

That would most probably have been the case, where it not for the fact that you won't find any Dutch girls on that high school any more, only so-called "kansenjongeren" [literal transl.: youth with a chance] a PC misnomer thought up by the politicians who spend millions of tax-payers' money on these 3rd generation Moroccan kids. The victim in this "incident" would probably have joined her classmates if the attack had been on a ethic Dutch girl, like in this clip that features Muslim youth having fun in the snow while stealing a bike from a native Dutch girl.

What we witness in the clip about the Huygens College, is Muslim apartheid and street "justice" in one of the central neighbourhoods in Amsterdam. The Muslim guy in the film, approving of the molestation, has had a chat with the board director and got a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile this head of the school has stated on film (also at AT5) that the attack on the girl "shows the dangers of social media such as Twitter". He couldn't have been clearer about the special care and concerns he has for his Muslim pupils.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Zenster said...

Sagunto: What we witness in the clip about the Huygens College, is Muslim apartheid and street "justice" in one of the central neighbourhoods in Amsterdam.

While the victim's ethnicity is not entirely clear, neither is it entirely pertinent. Any adolescent Dutch girl has the right to engage in moderate sexual experimentation without experiencing a physical assault that includes spianl injury.

The girl's background and ethnic origins are irrelevant. While her family is totally within their rights to raise her in an atmosphere that discourages teenage liasons, neither do they have any right to inflict severe physical punishment that could endanger her physical well-being.

Again, the entire matter is in direct violation of Dutch law and only the authorities' willingness to permit the existence of a parallel legal system within Holland is to blame.

I doubt that the foregoing is either any mystery or surprise to you. Quite the opposite is the case, I'm sure. The fact remains that it will soon enough not just be second or third generation Moroccan immigrant girls that are beaten for being adventurous but also native Dutch girls as well. Soon after that are the de facto mandatory veils and so forth until shari'a law is fully in place.

As to the school's head attempting to blame Twitter, that is the same backwards mentality that sees camera cell phones banned in Saudi Arabia. In no way can high technology be blamed for Neanderthal mentalities. That these barbaric mindsets are so severely threatened by the challenges of social media and other modern appurtenances is no different from jungle dwellers having to learn how to safely cross a busy metropolitan street.

GET USED TO IT OR PISS OFF!

This entire case is yet one more camel's nose inside the tent of Dutch society. Soon enough camel snouts will be the tent's sole occupants.

Michael Servetus said...

Some interesting stuff going on here. This is where I amy part ways with not a few here, so be it.
The photo represents leftism, liberalsim, Marxism in its destruction of morals and family and traditional social sexual mores, whihc can be called conservative in some respects if not in all. ironically , though it is hard to admit, the Muslims represent conservative values accompanied by physical enforcement. I would be happy if my kids had such strong views against lewdness.
These seeminlg ylittle things , little freedoms are the things that make up tyhe strenght of leftism and liberal leftism. These are the broken windows in a neighborhood that make it seem okay to sink deeper. These photos shouldnt be on the internet, 13 year old girls should not be posing in any such way and should nto even have any such ideas, thgat they do is a sign of thorough leftist immroal corruption, again the things that are breaking down society and thinking and judging-- and which give further strength to pc. PC MC exist to protect this stuff, such as homosexuality. These are the things and reasons that we have PC MC, they exist in order to defend alternative views, minority views, stigmatized views and it is in this protected envoroment that they grow and then take over and try to kill of every last vesatige of conservatism.
Maybe I am not delicate enough or sensitive or lacking insight in sopme way but I perceive this incident and others to be somewhat discomfiting, but I side with conservsativism, my particualr brand of it in this case. I accept that there are different brands of conservtive anti-jihadist beliefs but mine causes me to side with the kids who did the beating up in this case.
Haven't we read it here, that the only solution or the last solution might be a violent one that will come about out of necessity eventually? These kids behavior is the only language that unruly leftist understand, it is the only power by which any view dominates, through enforcement. Maybe I am not understanding things deeply enough but on this I fell happily closed-minded. I am not open to negotiation on some things and I am convinced that such things as the sexual tendency towards corruption and perversity as instantiated in the general homosexual idea is part of the problem. Leftism is nothing without cultural embodiment. Am I way off on this?

Sagunto said...

Zenster -

While your indignation is fully justified, I'm afraid you're kind of missing my perspective, quite literally because I live here ;-)

Point is: this place has already been taken over, and what we see is but a mild version of many "incidents" to come. You are talking about how things should function over here, provided there still is such a thing as the rule of law. I'm giving you feedback about reality. So you're absolutely right about tents and camel snouts and so on and in the case of Amsterdam-West, the camel has already entered the tent, lock stock and barrel.

Another point is that the Muslim background is essential here, in order to understand all reactions to the molestation, including that of the schoolmaster. These schools are testimony to the failure of MC social engineering. They are an embarrassment to the political nomenclatura who in large part have given up on them, except for the rhetoric about "chances in society" etcetera.. (think of Saddam Hussein's minister of Information, commenting or their victories while the bombs are falling).

A lot of people feel that this doesn't reflect back on Dutch society, because they have given up already and accept that in these areas Dutch society doesn't exist any more. You see the gravity of the whole thing?

The head of the school isn't clueless as some might think, he is considered a failure as well, just for the fact that he is head of a school like that. He talks a good deal about these sort of things being "unacceptable" but his "actions" or lack thereof, show that deep down, he really doesn't care.

Just another little update: one of the girls in the video, answering "No" to the question of the interviewer whether this attack was normal, has been identified as one of the pack actually beating up the 13-year-old Moroccan girl (ethnicity is clear and relevant).

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Zenster said...

Sagunto: You are talking about how things should function over here, provided there still is such a thing as the rule of law.

I am also talking about a Holland that will survive this current onslaught of Muslim colonists. It is why I take the liberty of presuming so much with respect to how things should or ought to be.

If those previously normative societal parameters are lost, they may well be lost forever. Once abandoned, few cultures ever regain their own ethnic milieu.

Your comparison of how unwilling to concede defeat the Dutch nomenclatura are to that of Baghdad Bob is both spot on and almost poginant in its aptness.

The head of the school isn't clueless as some might think, he is considered a failure as well, just for the fact that he is head of a school like that. He talks a good deal about these sort of things being "unacceptable" but his "actions" or lack thereof, show that deep down, he really doesn't care.

Imagine if someone demonstrated a similar degree of apathy with respect to exiting a blazing building. They would most certainly qualify for clinical treatment and possible confinement for their own protection.

Yet, this same attitude being displayed about Amsterdam burning down around everyone's ears is merely ho-hum news. It is this sort of counter-survivalist behavior that leads many to justifiably believe that Liberalism is a form of mental illness.

Just another little update: one of the girls in the video, answering "No" to the question of the interviewer whether this attack was normal, has been identified as one of the pack actually beating up the 13-year-old Moroccan girl (ethnicity is clear and relevant).

Perhaps this beatdown wasn't "normal" because the victim only suffered a concussion instead of a spinal injury.

It's long past tea to tie social benefits to the GPA (Grade Point Average) and citizenship scores of immigrant schoolchildren.

Sagunto said...

Zenster -

"I am also talking about a Holland that will survive this current onslaught of Muslim colonists. It is why I take the liberty of presuming so much with respect to how things should or ought to be.

If those previously normative societal parameters are lost, they may well be lost forever."


You are of course free to take all the liberty you want. Meanwhile I'll try to keep you posted about the war-zone over here and our own local version of "Egyptian Democracy".

What you describe as societal parameters is viewed by many native Dutch people as the failing system of the welfare state. That's where part of the anaemia comes from: people are not willing to fight for this socialist/liberal/progressive fiction.
And it is exactly as Hesperado described in another thread: more Muslim violence and intimidation? Well, more concessions of course by the system or "the nation" (not the undercurrent of the native Dutch community). Violence and intimidation seem to work miracles to bleed the welfare state dry, and many people are not shedding too many tears over it.

You are partly arguing from the standpoint that is taken by right-wing welfare state liberals over here (VVD party): Dutch law, for everyone, applied even-handedly to every Dutch citizen, regardless of.. etcetera.. Forget it. People see full well that the creeds of the French revolution have brought into being a slow but steady erosion of Dutch life. We are facing the decline of welfare state progressivism and many people instinctively feel no urgent inclination to defend it.

To recap about Amsterdam-West: we are not talking about defending Dutch law and order in that particular area, we're talking about an neighbourhood that must in time be reconquered, block by block. The kids we've seen in the video - including today's victim - are our near-future enemies that must be removed from society.

We cannot force these Muslims to accept Western rule of Law any more than the peoples of Egypt - as the innately barbaric Muslims that they are - can be forced to internalize genuine democratic values. I don't subscribe to that Blair-doctrine.

It will not work, not now, not ever.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

rebelliousvanilla said...

Sag, I'm not sure, but I'm glad that the Dutch have a positive attitude about these things. And yes, realizing that including outsiders is a failure is a positive thing. Maybe Europeans will return to how Europe was prior to the wholesale importation of Americanism.

Only a fool would die for equality, universalism and so on. I know that I wouldn't and I don't know anybody that would.

And Zenser, I'd like to ask you something. If sexual liberation, screwing around and treating everyone equally and giving equal oppotunity is all that is left of European culture, maybe we do deserve to be destroyed. I know that if I was an European man, I'd get more out of converting to Islam than being a supporter of feminism and the rest of the progressive agenda. Only a fool who doesn't know anything about Europe(which includes most young people today) isn't feeling repulsion and disgust at the current European society.

The way I see it is like this. As a probably future mother, there's absolutely nothing about the present culture that benefits my children. And no, I'd prefer my daughter not to have sexual liaisons or be encouraged to do so. Or to live in a society that increases her odds of being raped just so that it won't discriminate. If I can't have 1900 Europe, then it's a coin flip in between Islam and 'European civilization'.

And I say this as someone who grew up in a society with proper values. What happened to Europe since WW1 in terms of cultural change and Islam is a meaningless distinction to me.

polymathblogger said...

Sagunto,

Yes, the camel is already inside the tent, and the mainstream culture in Holland is incapable of doing anything about it. The question is whether the remnant of more traditional culture and values in Dutch society will be able to rise in the face of the PC-MC suppression, and achieve enough power to ignite the necessary civil war.

What most ordinary people there and in other countries are still only just beginning to become aware of is that all the "freedom and equality" values that have made their society more enjoyable in certain ways have also destroyed its immune system so that it cannot deal with foreign invaders and alien cultures. If they could have kept the buitenlanders out their society could recover in a normal way from the liberal leftist excesses, but it is not going to get that chance. Those excesses not only enrage the Muslims, but also make many who might be more traditionally-minded feel insufficiently attached to their society any more to defend it.

Sagunto said...

polymathblogger -

You are absolutely right. The problem here is not of strength. Native Dutch are much stronger than these invaders. The problem is lack of community, due to decades of progressivist welfare state corruption of economy, culture and freedom (same goes for the US). We are atomized and must somehow regroup.

rebelliousvanilla -

"Maybe Europeans will return to how Europe was prior to the wholesale importation of Americanism."

I'd second that, provided the label of this particular "americanism" is described more accurately by naming its chief characteristics, dominated by the political sects of socialism and progressivism.

As I see it, this is not "americanism" detached from socialist "europeanism", it is in large part a form of French revolution Jacobinism, fed back to Europe in a recycling loop as Wilsonian progressivism (and "military socialism", by the Bellamy nephews) when free America was destroyed by the last and final step towards democratic self-enslavement in 1913 (the Jekyll Island agreement on Central Banking Progressivism that gave birth to the FED).

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Baron Bodissey said...

Sagunto et al. --

I couldn't agree more with the trail of bread crumbs that leads from the Jacobins to the American Progressives and then back to Europe. All of that is quite true.

But we would be remiss to overlook the influence of German Progressive thinking on Western social policy, on both sides of the Atlantic.

German Progressive thought -- which included racial and eugenic themes that have now been scrubbed from modern memory -- was an enormous influence on both the United States and Western Europe in the late 1800s. Bismarck invented the paternalistic welfare state for the German Empire in order to outflank the Marxist Left on these issues. He was reacting to the predominant ideas that were fashionable in German universities at the time, in the late 19th century.

These same universities were the inspiration for many Americans who spent a year or two at them and then went on to careers in public policy in the United States, later implementing Progressive ideas adapted from Germany in the beginnings of the American welfare state. There is a direct line of descent from Germany to Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and later to Franklin Roosevelt and all the other Progressives who have maintained and venerated the shrine of FDR in the decades since.

Does anyone know whether thist German socialist thinking borrowed its main ideas from France? Or was it sui generis?

Sagunto said...

Baron -

"But we would be remiss to overlook the influence of German Progressive thinking on Western social policy, on both sides of the Atlantic."

A very important point indeed, which I didn't overlook by the way.

That's why I mentioned socialism, assuming that everyone over here is aware of its German/French roots, and what's more, I even mentioned America's renowned National Socialists: the Bellamy nephews, to wit: Edward, author of the international socialist bestseller "Looking Backward", and Francis, who constructed the Jacobinian spectacle of collectivist State worship known as "the pledge of allegiance", especially on the state run socialist public school system.

Edward Bellamy spent a year in Germany (1868 - 1869), and learned to speak/write the language. His brother Frederick said that Edward had studied socialism before he went to Germany. Frederick wrote that letters sent to him from Germany were full of German socialism.

While Bellamy was in Germany, attending lectures and studying German socialism, the first German labour unions saw the light of day and the German Workers' Party (Die Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) issued its manifesto. Bellamy repeated this program in his bestseller that I mentioned earlier. The German Workers' Party later added "National Socialist" to its name. There's your German - American connection in a little more detail.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Sagunto said...

Baron -

"Does anyone know whether thist German socialist thinking borrowed its main ideas from France? Or was it sui generis?"

Historically socialism has always been a broad European political movement that crossed national borders and a political religion (expanding on ideas partly developed centuries before, e.g. during the so-called "reformation", the Anabaptists that terrorised Münster are a case in point) .
There are "German" and "French" versions if you like, but there isn't anything exclusively German or French about the ideology of socialism itself.

Speaking in broad general terms, the political ideologies that inspired the French Revolution lie at the heart of many of the ills of both socialism and progressivism. That particular revolution itself didn't start it though. Radical "enlightenment" thought hailed from the Netherlands, originating from Amsterdam as radical Spinozism, though of course Baruch de Spinoza can't be held accountable for the radical debasement of his philosophy any more than Christ can be blamed for the degenerated form of Christianity propagated by the Social Gospel movement (not coincidentally the spirit of the age during the advent of the Progressive party in the US).

So finally, radical enlightenment returns to visit Amsterdam, the city where we started this topic.

Sag.

Homophobic Horse said...

"Native Dutch are much stronger than these invaders. "

Actually as a small country they're incredibly weak and cannot withstand international pressure.

4Symbols said...

In hoc signo vinces

The socio-political reading of this incident are interesting, the pseudo-morality like an islamic glazier gouging out the foundations of Western morality.

This is an alien incident that is being misidentified as being European.

Pre-Euro/islam had this been an incident in a indigenous European school the animosity (if any) in such an incident would have come from a very different base.

Baron Bodissey said...

Thank you, Sagunto. I'm always glad to see material from someone who knows more about a topic than I do.

Sagunto said...

Homophobic horse -

"Actually as a small country they're incredibly weak and cannot withstand international pressure."

Well actually, at face value you're absolutely right. If you'd read all of my earlier comments and chewed your food a bit more before you swallowed, it would have been easy for you to see that I'm not referring to the Netherlands as a nation, let alone the current political system of the welfare state, but to native Dutch as a people.

Baron -

My pleasure. You see my wider point no doubt, that we have a twin battle on our hands.
I wrote about our FOEs, as in the twin Forces of Enslavement. Assessing the above "incident" is very interesting because it provides the opportunity to show a little more about the how and why of the perceived "weakness" by the native Dutch community in their response (again @HH, not the political nomenclatura).
I have tried to explain, to Zenster among others, why it is that the native Dutch are not exactly storming the barricades over Muslim on Muslim violence. It is not because of disinterest in the islamization of Dutch society or cowardice, but exactly because many of us know that Islam has been forced upon Holland by a progressivist political system that ever more people over here don't like anyway. So in quite a paradoxical way, Islamic mayhem has almost become somewhat of a tool to bleed the welfare state, and that explains a great deal of why the response to these incidents is lukewarm at best, especially when there's intra-Islamic violence in areas created by the progressive political system. Of course there's people crying "outrage!" and such, liberal people, even willing to identify Islamic culture as the root cause of these problems. But they are only halfway on the right track and in danger of taking the wrong turn, for their outcry comes from the perspective of defending a strong welfare state and a very interventionist form of centralized government. That kind of Counter-Jihad is like driving out the devil with Beelzebub.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

rebelliousvanilla said...

Sagunto, by Americanism I refer to the influence the US had on Europe in the 20th century - great inventions like civic nationality, multiculturalism and political correctness were invented there. The seeds of multiculturalism were created in the Enlightenment, but the American Civil War sowed the institutional seeds of it.

What we need to reject is not only egalitarianism, but also universal morality. And this includes the American revolution.

"The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Many circumstances hath, and will arise, which are not local, but universal, and through which the principles of all Lovers of Mankind are affected, and in the Event of which, their Affections are interested. The laying a Country desolate with Fire and Sword, declaring War against the natural rights of all Mankind, and extirpating the Defenders thereof from the Face of the Earth, is the Concern of every Man to whom Nature hath given the Power of feeling; of which Class, regardless of Party Censure, is the AUTHOR."
These kind of beliefs lead us into this mess. Not even socialism is as preposterous. And Americans started the PC self censorship far before the Frankfurt school, since its trendy to blame things on them.

http://vimeo.com/18555300
Srdja Trifkovic nails it there. And I can mention this because I'm growing up at the period of change in my country - from traditional values to the new stuff we import from the US. And if I talk to younger people, society is becoming more and more like that.

Socialism and Americanism are the European and American interpretation of the Enlightenment, which is the child of Christianity and right now we live in their blend.

Zenster said...

rebelliousvanilla: If sexual liberation, screwing around and treating everyone equally and giving equal opportunity is all that is left of European culture, maybe we do deserve to be destroyed.

From what you write, it appears as though you have not traveled around Europe very much. Either that or you must be supremely unappreciative of what you see in your travels. During several visits in the past few years I have found a stupendous amount about Europe and its culture that is worth saving.

At present, Islam's concentrations in large metropolitan areas renders it much like lesions on Europe's larger muscles. These lesions could be excised without necessitating serious injury or crippling the larger Continental body. That said, the "surgery" required would be such a delicate procedure that very few are skilled enough or even capable, at this time, to perform the operation.

None of that changes how a huge portion of Europe and its traditional cultures are not just worth saving but worth fighting for. You pretend as though this licentious and Universalist mindset is all that remains in Europe.

What’s more, you come from a country whose culture was thoroughly debased by Communist “scientific planning” yet see yourself fit to declare that European culture is not worth saving. It might behoove you to show more respect for those who have opened their arms in order to allow you a chance at a better life. Instead, you routinely spit upon them. That is hardly respectful behavior.

It is also unworthy to judge Europe solely in the light of its modern descendants without fully accounting for an earlier generation of far firmer grain who’s collective sacrifice preserved what was once this world’s greatest civilization. Again, a civilization that you voluntarily settled into and then taken it upon yourself to display such contempt for.

However much Europe’s modern generations might be deserving of that contempt, it is a stupendous ingratitude to treat all Europeans with such scorn. There are many nooks and corners of Europe where neither Islam nor the feckless younger generation’s mindset have taken any sort of root. It is also more than likely that, in the near future, these bucolic recesses will be the source of much stalwart opposition to the ongoing Muslim colonization.

rebelliousvanilla said...

Zenster, I'd like to point out to you that here we don't have half of our children born out of wedlock and half of our marriages being failures.

Europe isn't a mere recollection of pretty buildings. But I can't expect an American to understand that. The traditional Europe is worth fighting for. I'm not exactly sure where I said that this isn't the case - I said that the Americanized version of Europe isn't worth fighting for. Besides, anything that is around in Europe right now can easily be rebuilt by Europeans if we returned to our sane roots. I'd trade all that is in Europe now to have Europeans think like their ancestors did - everything could be rebuilt in a generation or two.

And I can only spit on people who promote gay rights and all this idiocy in my country. I also enjoyed growing up without knowing what racism and sexism are, before Americans began promoting the idiocies around here.

Zenster said...

rebelliousvanilla: … by Americanism I refer to the influence the US had on Europe in the 20th century - great inventions like civic nationality, multiculturalism and political correctness were invented there.

You, more than most people, should know very well that Political Correctness was a direct offshoot of the German School and put to primary effect in Communist Russia.

rebelliousvanilla: Europe isn't a mere recollection of pretty buildings. But I can't expect an American to understand that.

Your condescending tone is as rude as it is inappropriate to this forum. Feel free to look up the respective definitions of "civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum" any time.

polymathblogger said...

The Trifkovic video is great (as are the other 7 videos on the same AltRightTV channel). But the universalism shown in that Paine quote was not the dominant ideology of the American revolutionaries -- even Jefferson, the most universalist of the Founders and the one most disposed to interfere with other countries and most supportive of the French Revolution, at the beginning of the declaration invokes the concept of "one people" dissolving political connections with another -- the nation is still the fundamental political unit, not the individual and not all mankind.

Adams went further, Franklin and Washington went further still, in identifying the Revolution as specifically American and not suitable for export. The one principle of the American Revolution that ought to be universally applicable is the most basic one of all, that governments are ultimately accountable to the people they govern; that principle justifies the eventual overthrow of tyrannies that go on for long enough, but does not favor any particular form of government or society beyond that.

Sagunto said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sagunto said...

rebelliousvanilla -

"The traditional Europe is worth fighting for. I'm not exactly sure where I said that this isn't the case - I said that the Americanized version of Europe isn't worth fighting for."

I am partly satisfied by your historical take on Americanization, but as I did earlier, I'd like to underline the fact that we are dealing with feedback loops that have a long history and many of what is negatively described as typical Americanism almost always originates from Europe at an earlier point in history. Please don't take this thread in the direction of a (traditional) Europe vs. America contest. That's not very uh.. "enlightening" to me, if you pardon me for saying so ;-)

Having said that, I agree with the general sentiment that informs your desire for a return to traditional Europe.

Zenster -

About the specific incident this topic was posted for. Were my explanatory comments - providing with you the inside Amsterdam perspective - of any service to you? Did they succeed in bringing home my point about why native Dutch consider ethnicity, no, scrap that for "Muslimicity", to be essential in these matters? Do you also see where I stand as to why native Dutch regard this as the failure of welfare state social engineering and won't fight in defence of such a system?

Thank you for the intelligent exchange, it is always a pleasure to view things from another perspective, especially when it is well-reasoned like your comments never fail to be.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Zenster said...

Sagunto: Were my explanatory comments - providing with you the inside Amsterdam perspective - of any service to you?

Absolutely. Even more informative were the connections you drew between Jabobism, the German School and America's own Wilsonian doctrine.

Most ironic though are your observations about how the Dutch have become blasé about the Islamization issue as it is merely an offshoot from the larger problem of a Socialistically governed welfare state thoroughly run amok.

We in America are approaching a similar turning point that is being discussed in GoV's "Smiling and Laughing at the State" thread.

While I am reluctant to label this fundamental level of disconnect as mere apathy, it carries with it many of the same symptoms and bodes particularly ill for the times to come when apathy's exact opposite will be most needed.

rebelliousvanilla said...

Sagunto, obviously. All American ideas of white people are European in a sense since well, white Americans are of European descent. But there are certain circumstances specific to America that created the way America is today. For instance, Americans never had a fully meaningful citizenship system due to their need to populate America. Even the initial one was faulty, not to mention the preposterous one after the Civil War. Not that I'm ashamed with the French revolution either. I'm not doing this because I hate Americans, I do this because as Europeans, we need to realize where we got the institutional implementation of all of this. As long as we see America as the right wing, conservative country that we need to emulate, we are screwed beyond belief. The American and French revolutions moved Europe to the left, so it is preposterous to see American ideals as conservative. Only a person who is clueless about history can say such a thing. This is my gripe.

polymathblogger, I know. You can even interpret the Constitution that it should benefit only WASPs since it talks about the security of their progeny. What matters is the overall message though. Obviously, the founding fathers had more roots to Europe than the subsequent generations, so they had a better understanding. What's funny is that the universalism probably comes from the fact British told that message to the colonies, since that's how you run an empire.

Zenster, how was Agatha's Christie's book named in the US? All over Europe it was named Ten Little Niggers. That was offensive for Americans in 1940. You can hardly blame the KGB or the Soviets for that one. Are the communists to be blamed for this one too? And we had no political correctness here. I don't know how many former communist countries you visited. You were free to bash whoever you wanted, as long as you rambled some communist crap around informers. And I answered you like that because of the way you addressed me. When you will not act in a chauvinistic fashion, maybe you will get respect and civility. It's farcically hypocritical for you to tell me to be civil when you talk about my country's culture and how debased it is, despite you probably not even knowing anything about it.

Sagunto said...

Zenster -

Yep, isn't it ironic? But on the other hand, while writing my comments, I realized that there's also somewhat of a (mixed, to say the least) blessing in disguise in how things are coming to an end here. PC MC's are dead-enders, they will stick to their lies and try to uphold the multicultural semblance of society just like Baghdad Bob did for Saddam city. Native Dutch (and Europeans, ánd Americans) already see this, they have been witnessing the pact that was forged by shariasocialism, though now they begin to understand that our so-called rightwing politicians (like your "conservatives") have been complicit as well. Now the focus shifts to the system of the welfare state as a whole, and there lies my hope. That after educating people about the first one of our FOE (Forces of Enslavement), a second round of truth telling will convince people that we have been living in a slave society all along (by paying income tax to a state that is deeply into the looting business; by living under the scourge of monetary inflation caused by Central Banking, etcetera).
Serfs cannot fight for freedom (not here, nor in the US), so we have to rid ourselves from this anti free market, progressivist Central Banking junkies once and for all. After the battle for Middle Earth and the defeat of Sauron, Gandalf told Sam that "a" great shadow had departed, not "the" great shadow. There's still need for the "Scouring of the Shire", the actual climax of Tolkiens work, that Tolkien himself thought of vital importance. Of course this ending was left out of the horrible film adaptation by Peter Jackson, who went straight for the sugary happy ending. Perhaps @rebelliousvanilla would consider that to be a cultural example of Americanism. I'd point out that there are still a great many American folk who oppose that version of Americanism and read good books (and blogs ;-)


rebelliousvanilla -

You wrote:

"As long as we see America as the right wing, conservative country that we need to emulate, we are screwed beyond belief. The American and French revolutions moved Europe to the left, so it is preposterous to see American ideals as conservative."

I think a great deal of truth lies in what you said there. I think though that there are a great many people in America with sound ideals and morals, so I'd still prefer to call them American political ideals.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

Sagunto said...

Zentster - [continued..]

And apathy, sure, why not call it that flat out? In a welfare state - like de Tocqueville described in his study about the young American democracy - people will be sapped of their own initiative by an all encompassing and "benevolent" system of regulations. But you see, that's not the end of the story. Thinking that's all there is to be told and things will end by and with that apathy, now that is real anaemia. That's why, in order to make my point, I referred to the Lord of the Rings and especially to "the Scouring of the Shire".

There's a post on JW by Roland Shirk who discusses the excellent work of Tom Shippey (I have read it many times and it really deepened my appreciation for Tolkien's masterpiece). I don't agree with the rather simplistic analogies Mr. Shirk is drawing, but for me it was still a usefull article, for it caused me to think about the final and essential episode when Frodo et al return home, or so they think. What they see is England, Europe and now America in some sort of mysterious despair that has followed so strangely after victory, and Shippey writes (p. 220):

"It is about a society suffering not only from political misrule, but from a strange and general crisis of confidence [..]"

After a comparison with Orwell's novel Coming up for Air, Shippey goes on to ask:

"Why do the hobbits of the Shire tamely allow themselves to be taken over, when they quite clearly have the strength to resist, and face very little opposition when they do resist? [..] They are bewildered and confused [..] by the Voice of Saruman, the insistent persuasion of modern political jargon."

That is your anaemia or "apathy", and it does exist, just like Tolkien describes for the Shire folk. But let's read on to get the bigger picture (here as in Amsterdam):

"To this [apathy] the answer in The Lord of the Rings, is the horn of Eorl the Young [..] As soon as Merry blows it, the rebellion starts and immediately the paralysis dissipates. Everybody seems to wake up. Not only do they know what they want (they always did, like Orwell's George Bowling) they have no hesitation in getting it, and rejecting the pointless destruction that comes with Saruman and all he stands for."

With the defeat of Sauron (read, Islam), victory is not achieved, and Tolkien himself thought the "Scouring of the Shire" was most essential to his entire work. Anyone got the horn of Eorl yet? Pretty soon, we'll have our own bit of "scouring" to do and find our way back, to freedom. So blaze the trail.. ;-)

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

4Symbols said...

In hoc signo vinces

By the reasoning of the benevolence of poverty the Third World should have been innovative and prosperous, the welfare argument in the counter-jihad is equivalent of the jihadi enablers absurdidity "if ony Israel did not exist ... "

If only liberty did not exist there would be no slavery, If ony welfare did not exist blah-blah-blah!

It is a strange and disingenuous argument at least put it into context or be accused of socialist deception tactics of using the counter-jihad platform to collaterally destroy European welfare systems - disingenuous.

rebelliousvanilla said...

Sagunto, I have no problem with Americans. I know quite a few of them who are really cool people, who are just like you say - people with sound ideals and moral compass. And the apathy we are experiencing is normal for any culture and people who once ruled the world - most people today don't realize that we are being threatened to extinction demographically and that we not only not rule the world, but not even our own countries. In history, this is a recurrent theme. Once a country achieves wealth, apathy will follow. Sure, us removing all the pain feedback loops from our society via the state(single mothers not suffering, for instance) is making it worse. Social hormesis is good. A society facing adversity has to become determined to overcome it, while one that is rich and dominant will grow apathetic overtime without an external challenge. In 1950-1960, we, white people were 30% of the world's population and over 70% of its GDP, making about 80% of the manufacturing goods and we were still by in large ruling over colonies. Going from that to 10% of the world(and even less in terms of babies being born), to crushing levels of debt and so on in 50 years is quite a feat that we need to realize.

There are other features of European society that America influenced. A century ago, the people of status in a society weren't the merchants. If you read novels from those times, officers in the army, priests and teachers had a bigger importance. Most people have NO idea how much Europe changed since 1900, let alone earlier, when our problems started.

Since we're at it, Zenster, could you explain why the US in the late 19th century was lobbying for my country to water down its citizenship criteria, which allowed only Christians to be citizens? I mean, the Bolshevik revolution wasn't even around. Or in the early 19th century, Wilson was rambling to my country's royal house about how we should improve the conditions of our minorities. The Frankfurt school is to blame for that one too? On the other hand, you weren't alone in it - France was doing it too. Notice a pattern here. :P

Sagunto said...

rebelliousvanilla -

"Sagunto, I have no problem with Americans. I know quite a few of them who are really cool people, who are just like you say - people with sound ideals and moral compass."

I needn't have pressed for that answer, but it's good to hear anyway. So we are discussing political ideals with long-standing pedigrees, both in Europe and in the US, with certain distinct features that would be recognized by most people on both sides of the Atlantic as either typically "American" or "European", am I correct?

All -

Meanwhile - turning back to the microcosm of inner-city Amsterdam and the "incident" that started this interesting discussion - there's some dazzling BREAKING NEWS feat, that I will try and translate, a.s.a.p. and time permitting.

In short: it is sort of a follow-up on the article about the Twitter picture incident in Amsterdam-West. It is as if the politicians have been listening in, because the shocker of today's news is about a PC MC policy for that specific Amsterdam neighbourhood only:

The news:
Native Dutch families living in the Amsterdam-West area will soon be FORCED to send their kids to so-called "black schools" [PC lingo meaning: schools with a vast Muslim majority population]. That will be the Huygens College of which we have come to know a little more. For instance that no native Dutch kids go there, and also why it might be that their parents have decided that way. Until now, that is.
I already pointed out to Zenster* that the progressivist bureaucrats are dead-enders who will use any means at their disposal to enforce their multicultural creed upon the people, even if their measures are in direct violation of Dutch law (freedom of choice for parents, where to send their children to school).
I already brought the news under the attention of the Baron and maybe it will feature in a separate post.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.


* not Zentster, Sorry @Zen, for mixing you up with the retired left-wing ice hockey player, Jason Zent ;-)