Thursday, March 05, 2009

Scratch a Tatar

Russkiy is a regular reader and occasional commenter here at Gates of Vienna. After my recent post about Russian demography, he sent me an email with additional first-hand information about indigenous Russian Muslims. He has given me his kind permission to publish the entire text:

Dear Baron,

This is regarding your recent post about the Russian Muslim population. Although I have been living away from Russia for a while, I believe I can shed some light on this issue.
Tatars
As people mentioned in the comments, a majority of Muslims in Russia are Tatars. I will try to give you some idea of who these people are.

First of all, I believe that a very big proportion of the Russian population that describe themselves as ethnic Russians are actually Tatars. These people are fully Russian now, and are Christians. The rest of the Tatars can be split into three categories.

1. Tatars that have a confused identity. I have met many of this type. When you meet them in a foreign country, they say that they are Russians, but then when you query them further because of the difference in their appearance they admit that they are ethnic Tatars. Therefore in my opinion these people are fully integrated into mainstream society, with the same mentality as Russians. I think proportionally these people make up half of the Tatar population in Russia.
2. Tatars that identify themselves as Tatars. In general this group is very similar to the first group, with the exception that they realize and affirm their ethnicity. They are not really religious and they do drink alcohol and eat pork, but at the same time they call themselves Tatars. This group makes up one quarter of the Tatar population in Russia.
3. Tatars that identify themselves as Tatars, but also celebrate some of the traditional Tatar (Islamic) holidays. They would probably drink alcohol, but would not eat pork (not pork chops, but may be as sausage). They don’t otherwise follow a halal diet. These people make up a quarter of the Tatar population.

The first group normally have Russian names, but Tatar surnames. These people are normally indistinguishable from Russians, and rates of intermarriage are very high. However, this group when queried (in statistical surveys) may identify themselves as Tatars.

The second group normally would have a Tatar first name as well as the second. They would definitely identify themselves as Tatars in a statistical survey, and rates of intermarriage with Russians are still high but less than in the first group. These people live closer to traditional Tatar homelands and therefore they have greater ability to preserve their identity.

The third group would in many respects be similar to Kazakhs, whom I will discuss in detail. These people may or may not know their native language. They pay lip service to religion; however, the majority of these people wouldn’t know much about Islamic doctrines. They wouldn’t normally pray, but may attend the mosque occasionally during some festivals.
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One thing to note here is that the only real thing that separates Tatars from Russians is religion, so if Tatars become nationalistic I think they will become more religious. The Russian government must play a game to get these people to become fully Russian without alienating them and pushing them back towards religion.

And I am sure there are some very religious people amongst them, but a very small minority.

As for Kazakhs, I believe I can shad some light on them as I am married to one, and have been to Kazakhstan.

The first time I met my wife (about five years ago) she appeared very liberal, pro-Western, and very modern. However she still referred to herself as a Muslim. She would cringe when I would start criticizing Islam and making fun of Arabs. It took me a while to get her to eat pork. As time passed, and I studied more about Islam (partially because I thought that our marriage wouldn’t be accepted by her family because I wasn’t a Muslim, and I had to do a fake conversion) I managed to prove to her that Islam is all bollocks, and now she is a bigger Islamophobe than I am.

When we visited her family in Kazakhstan, I observed that life there is very much like in Russia. The urban people on the surface appear the same. The main difference is that in the family there is an obvious hierarchy, where the head of the family is really the boss, and the lowest members are the daughters-in-law. They are supposed to serve food and sit at the side of the table closer to the door (less prestigious), while the best seats at the table are reserved for the head and the guests (me and my wife in that case).

The conversation was much more formal than I was used to. I really had to listen to the elders, never interrupt them and never argue. You can’t really have a discussion in that environment. For example, in my family I can have a discussion with my grandparents, and if they are wrong I will argue with them until either they convince me that I am wrong or vice versa.

People in her family speak Russian; their knowledge of the Kazakh language is poor, and non-existent amongst the younger generation. This is the case with urban Kazakhs; the people who live in the country speak Kazakh, and Russian not so well, with an accent. There is a division between the two types of Kazakhs. Each type looks down on the other. The city-dwellers think that the other type are unsophisticated, uneducated barbarians, and the other type thinks that the city-dwellers are not true Kazakhs anymore.

The relationship between Kazakhs and Russians is fairly good. A lot of intermarriage, however, normally it’s a Kazakh man and Russian woman. But on a positive note their children are very Russified and non-religious or Christians. I have met many of them.

And in my case, although to start with there were some objections to our marriage, they have accepted it in the end, and I have a very good relationship with them.

As for their religious observance, it is very low; the mosques are only visited during holidays and to say a prayer for the dead on the anniversaries of their passing. They don’t pray, they drink, and they don’t observe halal except for not eating pork openly (although everyone eats pork sausages).

Kazakhs really hate Turks for some reason (probably because Turks look down on them as their smaller siblings and bad Muslims). Also, if you have the appearance of a Wahhabi you can get your butt kicked over there. They do differentiate between Muslims and Muslims, meaning that they actually refer to real practicing Muslims like in Uzbekistan as Muslims (kind of ambiguous).

I hope this helps to define the type of “Muslims that live in and around Russia”.

Regards,
Russkiy

P.S. Another thing I want to mention is that I have seen fewer women wearing hijab in Kazakhstan than in New Zealand, a Western non-Islamic country. In fact, the type of dress for women in Kazakhstan is very “Western” — by that I mean slutty. Girls wear short skirts, lots of makeup, etc. I am sure men from Western countries like the US or New Zealand wouldn’t be able to stop staring at them, as the clothes worn over there by girls are much more revealing than in the West for some reason. Women in general pay much more attention to their appearance. I guess that’s a feature of a more chauvinist society, but I kind of like it.

Mark Steyn and other writers who describe the civilized world’s looming demographic crisis are right — there is a serious problem. Russia, Japan, Italy, Spain, and a number of other countries are facing a choice between drastic depopulation and being overrun by Third World immigrants.

But the overall situation is complex, and our slide into disaster is not yet irreversible. I’m grateful to Russkiy for providing us with a more nuanced view of the current demographic makeup of his country.

12 comments:

Czechmade said...

See Afonso,

Russkiy supports with more expertise my thesis. You did not trust me, thinking I make up "my typical Czechmade something, almost MC stuff".

But I took real interest and kept talking to the people who came from the region. I would add that the Kazachs are divided in 6 tribes. It can be problematic sometimes for one to move to the area of the other tribe.

So surprizingly we non-Kazakhs can be more free in moving and settling around Kazakhstan. There can be some other troubles following the recent economic turbulences or working exsoviet "foreigners" cleansing from Russian cities last years.(Many moved to the richer Kazakhstan, getting no jobs there)

Pakistani students do not get beaten up in UK, but they get beaten in Kazakhstan. No PC types to defend them are around there.

A Kazakh or Kyrgyz landing on a Turkish airport is taken for a Chinese. On the Turkish TV he is however a welcome member of the enlarged Turkish family.

Our approach to the islamic thing should not be hysterical or superficial, we just alienate people who are practically more on our side. Many Kazachs or Kyrgyzs are also shamanic or mixed up families. Being newly protestant can also be trendy.

There is a hadith with mohammad insulting perfectly the original "Turkishness" (punishable in Turkey), discribing the Turk mockingly as a Kazakh looking person. Who are the Turks?

PC homunculus is still scared to discuss it.

Thanks to all for this article, try to continue reporting.

Very interesting is also Azerbaijan - resisting Turkish/Persian influences and getting more and more on the track to modernity with no qualms. We help islamics by not appreciating that loudly.

Afonso Henriques said...

Czechmade, my friend...

First of all. While I am a bit surprised (in relation to the Kazaks, not the Tatars), I believe in everything Russky said.

However, while taking the big picture - which is what I try to do - this changes my mind from very little to nothing.

I must say that I am against Russifying the Tatars in Tatarstan just because if you do that, there will be no more Tatars. However, they could be 20% or so of Tatarstan, live in reserves (like some Natives in America and Canada) or something like that, I would not oppose. But plain and simple erradication of a people from its land, especially when that people is quiet for 300 or so years, I can only condemn.

Returning to the bigger picture.

"Russkiy supports with more expertise my thesis. You did not trust me, thinking I make up "my typical Czechmade something, almost MC stuff"."

Yes, Russkiy supports your thesis. However, I cannot see the Chinese taking over the East and Russian women there as a "liberation". Sorry pal, you will have to come with some arguments for such a thing. Where exactly does Russky and I become incompatible?

"Pakistani students do not get beaten up in UK, but they get beaten in Kazakhstan. No PC types to defend them are around there."

What does that mean? Why is it? Is it because they are "too islamic"? That is - I think - nonesense. I bet that if you (for instance) look too much to a girl in Prague, you are risking to be punched by her boyfriend or such. I think that "healty protectionism" is much more alive in Kazakhistan, that's just one of the reasons.
And what's the difference between Kazhaks and Uzbeks? Why some are "true" muslims and others not?
The Kazhaks are muslims so the seeds are planted.

I believe we are now setting the borders of the Civilisations and the next step will be for those Civilisations to get radicalised. Then, instead of seeing multiple wars of Civilisations - which might be possible as well - we will mainly see a war between all major Civilisations against Europe. In this, I'd like to add that I do not see any indication of the Hindus/Indians hostility towards "the West" and thus I think we should discuss more India*.

I see Kazhakistan as a mixed country because it is 30% Russian. Kazhaks are not the only ones to rule that. However it is not Western. It is not part of "Russian Civilisation". I would have to accept Mexico before I would accept Kazhakistan.

"A Kazakh or Kyrgyz landing on a Turkish airport is taken for a Chinese."

Come on! Chinese are a very distinct people. Proud and with old and distinctive culture and way of life. Some time ago, I could even distinguish successfully a Chinese from a Japanese. But now the Chinese here have become more prosperous and Westernised (in dress at least and mainly) so that I can only know a Japanese for he's always smiling and has more than two high tech cameras around :)


"There is a hadith with mohammad insulting perfectly the original "Turkishness" (punishable in Turkey), discribing the Turk mockingly as a Kazakh looking person."

Interesting. Just for fun, I would like to know more.

"Very interesting is also Azerbaijan - resisting Turkish/Persian influences and getting more and more on the track to modernity with no qualms."

That's because of all the money the U.S. has pomped in. It is merely temporary. They will always be the first ones to attack Armenians and support Chechens and the like.

Do not think I am close minded. I am very open, so please keep sending information if you think you're right. However, and "taking the bigger picture" I don't see how can we benefit from helping others when we are falling apart. That and the belief that we should support "nihilistic muslims" is something I can't agree with. It's just not right to take a culture from a Human group. It's more humane, Civilised and virtuous to fight them untill they all perish. It is however perferible (better) to slowly atract them and influentiate them. With this I do not mean invite them in and treat them *AS EQUALS*. The last thing is the utter most Civilised thing to do.

So, Czechmade, you worry about the smaller picture, I do only about the bigger one. I can honestly say that I do not care about how many innocent Iraqis die just as much as I can honestly say that I lament the calamities those people - whom I do not even care about - have been subjected to and that I am sorry for their non diserving suffering which exists and is great. I say this without demonising the United States's actions in Iraq. When you are capable of this "detachment", you will see that what you purpose is actually (I believe) counterproductive. If only I could be so detached in relation to more "real" and personal things...

----------------------------------------
*that's another question... don't even bother...

Czechmade said...

Bigger picture is an irrational non-sense.

You are obsessed with the Russian-Chinese couple. Instead of blindly admiring Russia like leftists soviets, why dont you work on the Russian male to make him care for his female? Yes, Russia is the best thing to paint "bigger pictures".

Russified Tatars...ok, Napoleon said
"scratch a Russian, you find a Tatar". You suffer for your RussChinese couple leaving behind the RussTatar couple, Why?

Kazakhstan is not 30% Russian...
Reducing Azeris to stupid US money receivers is really arrogant, you never hasten to say you know nothing.

I give you a test - which city is more European: Moscow, Petersburg, Novosibirsk?

Afonso Henriques said...

Czechmade,

"Russia is the best thing to paint "bigger pictures"."

Indeed. I recognise you are right when you say this. However, I cannot just fall the way that "Bigger picture is an irrational non-sense". I'm not Russian. I just want Russia to serve my interests because I think Russia has a lot of potential. But hey, Russia is Russian.

"why dont you work on the Russian male to make him care for his female?"

It's not of my business. And I believe you are generalising. And I cannot the Chinese as a model in what concerns respect towards women. My impression is that they BUY Russian women.

"Russified Tatars...ok, Napoleon said
"scratch a Russian, you find a Tatar". You suffer for your RussChinese couple leaving behind the RussTatar couple, Why?"

I do not understand this. Napoleon was the man who also said that Africa started in the Pyrinees, so what he says to me... And what does that really means? That the Russians have a small Asian admuxture? That the Russians have interiorised islam and as such are always barbaric?
They are the guardions of the East. It is a tough job.

"Kazakhstan is not 30% Russian..."

Okay, then it is 30/2=15 15% Tatar. It is the statistics that say that, not me.

"I give you a test - which city is more European: Moscow, Petersburg, Novosibirsk?"

Kiev. That is what I have been saying.
Now seriously. It depends on your perspective. Novosibirsk is not, definetly. And I'd say Saint Petresburg is the Traditionally most European City.
But Moscow has being catching up well.

I'd say Saint Petresburg though. The architecture there are jut... (and I bet you will say it is Novosibirsk and I wonder why)

gun-totin-wacko said...

A few thoughts here, about a very interesting piece. First off, Afonso, you state that it's your impression that Chinese men buy Russian women. I hate to say it, but it isn't only them. A few years ago, I read a book called "The Natashas", which made me almost physically ill. It talks about the Eastern European sex trade, and how women are treated. Apparently, Moslems and (somewhat surprisingly) Orthodox Jewish men also but them, or at least take advantage of their forced prostitution.

As do the Japanese, Koreans, Western Europeans, Hispanics, and Americans- in fact, any group that can provide the money needed to buy such a woman.

Russia and China have many problems, and it will only get worse (I suspect you and I agree on how that area will be changing), but this problem isn't only found there.

As to the main article, it really was educational. I always thought "Tatars" were from Asia- that they were the descendants of the Mongols and other eastern Asian tribes. Apparently not, or if they originally came from there, they've long forgotten their true homeland.

With the Kazaks, maybe I'm thinking of another group, but I thought that they had become Jewish, sometime in the mists of the medieval age. Or did they then later decide that it was better to convert to yet another religion, this time at the point of a sword?

(The story I heard is that the ruler of the Kazaks decided to embrace a religion, and invited emissaries from several to address the leaders of the Kazak people. After hearing them all, the decision was made to embrace Judaism. Thus, according to the Tale, most of the Russian "Jews" who "returned" to the Holy Land were descended from people who had never been anywhere near the Mideast. Thus unintentionally providing the local Muslims a strong case to argue that it wasn't a
"return from exile", but rather a "hostile takeover" of Palestine.)

So is my memory failing me, or is this what happened?

At any rate, thanks to Russkiy and our Hosts. I still would love to travel around Russia and it's neighbors in the C.I.S., but if Steyn is correct, I suppose I better hurry...

Czechmade said...

Afonso,

you are a real troubadour,
you love and praise something you do not know. You idealize and the object of your interest should serve your purposes. This is crazy.

A troubadour to become a Don Quijote?

Petersburg is the criminal capital of Russia. The architecture is a wishful thinking of a Russian despot, who got rid of Moscow boyars. "Boy" means fight. Noblemen-jihadis.

If you study the telephone directory of Novosbirsk and the people on the street as well, you will find soon something very nonRussian:

German, Polish, Jewish, Lithuanian, Latvian etc. names/people. The architecture may be horrible, but the people are more Western. You stil do not enjoy any paradoxes...I enjoy it.

Courtesy of Stalin.

The name of this article is derived from the quote of Napoleon.

I do not mind being a Chinese, Gypsy, Palestinian or Eskymo...but not being one, I do not like to perform such a difficult task as becoming Eastern European for ex.
Maybe I love them, but I am not one of them. Maybe I do not love the Western people, but I am one of them. Irony is a great stuff.

I cannot serve your purposes or dreams. Sorry.

If you expect some specific services from Russia, ask them also to follow some rules. Why not?
Rule them a bit.

Everybody "buys" me, who treats me well. So does the Chinese guy - replacing the Russian married to his vodka bottle. Do you want her kids to watch their mother beaten by the islamic style Russian father? Taking all the money to the vodka shop? You have good cards to protect the Russian female, I might be accused of something antiRussian. Play your good cards, start a society with a noble goal.

Afonso Henriques said...

"A troubadour to become a Don Quijote?"

It makes more sense than I think you think. I can give you that.

"Maybe I love them, but I am not one of them. Maybe I do not love the Western people, but I am one of them. Irony is a great stuff."

Oh... this is directed to me? Is it? It may because you look down to Eastern Europeans. I can tell much differences from Eastern and Western Europeans. Like I can do from Northern and Southern Europeans.
That's why I see only Europeans. It makes no sense, it's whishfull thinking. I am not even European. To me you are a bridge between Eastern and Western Europe; To you even Poles and Lithuanians are "Mittel Europeans" or even Western Europeans.

If I "love" Eastern Europeans, it is because they appear to be more Europeans than Western Europeans.

And that thing about buying and stuff Czechmade, is just another nonsense. You want to fight alcoholim with Chinese penises?

------------------------------

About the Russian cities. So Novossibirsk is the more European because it is the more "Western" and the less Russian?
I understand what you say and I do recognise it's rational. But I think it makes Novossibirsk less Russian and not more European aming the different Russian cities. The more European of the Russian cities should be the one which without being less Russian has been more opened and in conection with Europe, naturally. I'd say Saint Petresburg then.

It's like, some say Munich is the most Italian city of Germany or the Northernmost Italian city. However, it is not because it is filled with Italians, is it?

You left me with litle to say.

Afonso Henriques said...

Gun Totin Wacko,

"I hate to say it, but it isn't only them. A few years ago, I read a book called "The Natashas", which made me almost physically ill."

Yes. I haven't read that. I'd like to, despite how much depressing it may be. But I know at least part of what's going on. Not only are the conditions in Russia & Ukraine awfull, those women are then bought by everybody: It's the Turk's favourite sport to hunt them down and then sell them / marry them, and when I say Turk I mean everything from Istambul to Beijing. And it's not just today, it is like this since the Mongols and the muslims first appeared in the area. In some of those places, from Istambul to Beijing, a rich man has always an Ukrainian/Russian girl to please him. It reminds the Arabs and the European slave trade before the Americans had destroyed the powerfull navies of the North African Pirate States.

"Apparently, Moslems and (somewhat surprisingly) Orthodox Jewish men also but them."

Yes, but I am not shocked by the Jewish involvemen. I mean, it is not that abnormal for an ethnic group to have a given amount of criminals. I went shocked however on how there are some Russians and Ukrainians who sell the women to this Turks, how the Turks (again, from Istambul to Beijing) just buy them in such a desproportional number, and how it has become a tradition there; and especially, how Western people reacts. I mean, night clubs in London or Berlin are filled with these "Russian bribes" and no one does a thing. There are no femininists to help them or what else.

This is so schocking when one mets one "normal" Russian, usually Ukrainian girl or women. They have a sense of morality and ethics that seem to surpass the average Western women. It's so much that those "normal" girls have not been subjected too or simply do not care... for instance, Russky spoke about the Kazhaks girls's sluttish ways. I am a person who makes a destinction between promiscuity and sensuality. To me, the more a girl is promiscuous the more points she will lose in me eyes, but the more she is erotic and sensual the more points she will win. And those "Russian normal" girls tend to be sensual but not slutty while Western girls can always surprise me a litle further in their promiscuity.

Even here, in the other extreme of Europe there are "russians" to be bought. The greatest hit is the Brazilians, but the Brazilians are indeed happy here with that situation. I am not stating that all Brazilians are hores, I want that to be clear. But this kind of Brazilians are a type of women who love to be desired and who have been heavily abused by their own families in impoverished areas since childhood (It is shocking to see that in North East Brazil it is normal to see some mothers going through Hotels selling their 8 years old daughters as prostitutes to Portuguese, English and German lonely males. And it is even more shocking how there are people who go there just for that). To such an extent that they came here and are happy to have a place where they can sleep and are only abused lightly for some hours and recieve money for it. The "Russian" girls who are bought, in contrast, they seem to have no soul... it's really depressing.

And I, as a person who watches Russia Today somewhat regularly am shocked when the Russian media shows as a proof of good relationship between two countries that: "Russian women are the foreign most common women to marry local men in"... and you chose the country. I've seen Kazakhistan, Turkey and Finland. I've seen "the most common European women to marry" in Venezuela (I think) and Guinea...
We know the truth behind such marriages; Only in Finland was some normality behind that.

So what shocks me the most is how Russians do indeed aloud the Turks (from Istambul to Beijing) to buy their women and how the (Western) Europeans treat them. I have not talked yet but the situations in the Balkans, especially in the muslim states like Bosnia and Albania, is shocking as well because it is just damn to common.
But in that region, Serbian women are at least as much martyrised as well. For instance some weeks ago I saw a news link that claimed that half of the women who are here working as sex slaves and come from Eastern Europe arrived here through the Albanian mafia. Nonetheless the media always present Romanian and Russian mafias as the dangerous ones here.

I agree that it will only get worse. But it cannot get much worst to these people in Russia and Ukraine, really. Not at this thing of women for sale.

-------------------------------

"I always thought "Tatars" were from Asia- that they were the descendants of the Mongols and other eastern Asian tribes."

That's pretty correct. But the Tatars are very mixed. It's like when the Mexicans claim to be indigenous of the Southwest... Texas, California and the Nortwest of Mexico was the area most settled by Spaniards.

"With the Kazaks, maybe I'm thinking of another group, but I thought that they had become Jewish, sometime in the mists of the medieval age."

Well, I think you are confuzing the Kazaks (Cazaques) with the Kazhars(?) (Kazares), just notice the R.
The Kazakhs and the Tatars have pretty much the same origin. East Asian tribes who conquered the area. The Kazakhs and the Tatars are the descendents of the Mongols. They have adopted Islam. The Kazars suposedly became the Jews.

Czechmade said...

In a way it is nice of you, you want to elevate us to the position of a European pope, a lighthouse, a clamp, or someone who keeps the machine in good shape. We might be oil as well. Oil would be fantastic, since Germany is the "engine" of Europe in the journalistic newspeak - just like bridge.

Oil can be dirty or holy.
Bridge can be used for advancing armies, suddenly you are car park or even tank park with fence at the wrong end.

Most "Eastern Europeans" live on the torso lands of the Byzantine Empire. They do not have necessarily good relationship with each other. So one bridge might be easily 20 bridges. No journalist will like it. Most of those people I do not know, so why I should suddenly like or dislike them?

Nice news - kicking Iranians out of Morocco for spreading shiism.






Everybody makes a bridge. Look at qantara.de "bridge" in Arabic.
Implications of Mitteleuropa are a disaster, as soon as you start reading German webs/books headed by this term.

Afonso Henriques said...

"as soon as you start reading German webs/books"

Just let me learn German please. I now wonder what I should learn first, proper German or proper French. Both ahead of Russian... well, at least one of those is ahead of Russian... And of course, what I do need is to attain classes of English again, and fast, because my English is detriorating fast. Yesterday, I could only see "Dogtown" with the subtitles... I almost did not get a sentence right with my ears...
And before the German/French poses always that question of Italian, well, it's not really Italian, what I need is to learn Latin fast and have an excuse to visit Italy just because...

And oil? Oil is always good, a real blessing for the "Matrecos/Matraquilhos". One cannot have a true, properly manly "Matraquilhada" without a litle bit of oil.
And Scolari, that Brazilian devil calling "Pimboli" to the "Matrecos" while he was the coach of our National Team... Pimboli? It's not even near nothing Portuguese... ball->bola, but, "Pimboli"??

I am so glad he was fired from Chelsea...

Russkiy said...

Russia does have many problems, mainly due to the sudden colapse of the soviet union. Sudden economic and political colapse sparked detioration of the law and order. During the Soviet Union times both life expectancy and population growth was much higher. an everage family would have 2 children. Rarely would you find a family with less than that or more than that.

Regarding the low life expectancy for people in Russia, I dont think it is such a bad thing, given the drain on the economy this people would have and not enough young people. compare that to western europe where old people live for a long time and the population growth rate is as low as that in Russia.

Afonso, Tatars must be fully Russified. Their Culture for Good of for Bad has already been supplanted with Russian, the only thing as I said that separates them from the majority is their religion which the dont really follow. If they just switch calling themselfs Muslims and start calling themselfs Christian everything will be fine.

The problem for women in Russia is that there are more of them than men. Many men have died in Afganistan, Chechnia, Crime of the 90s, Stress. Many women have no life partner.

As for treatment of Women by Russian men, Women are treated well, as long as a family is ok, the man is not an alcoholic. In the west there are the same problems. As I said due to colapse of Soviet Union the entire social fabric of a society have been damaged. Due to high stress the level of alcoholism in Russia went up, This caused very major problems.

I only hope that this recesion is not an equivalent of Soviet Union Colapse, because if it is, its not going to be pritty. The ones who look down on us now, for our crime, coruption etc, will see what happens when there is now order, when you know that your lively hood is not certain, and that to survive, for your family to survive you need to do eligal stuff, take bribaries.

I am not an advocate of a Soviet Union, but when ever a political system colapses, it is ugly. With Soviet Union the economical system was completely different, therefore when it was replaced with free market suddenly, people werent ready.

Anonymous said...

Okay now we can hear from a Kazakh with a Tatar grandmother.

As I mentioned above I am truly Kazakh/Tatar, and I would like to point out something nobody said on here. First of all the article ignores a very important difference between Russians, and Tatars which is not Islam/Christianity. Tatars are Turks similar to Kazaks( the two along with nogays, and bashkirs have been ruling Russia for quite a while until the West orchestrated our downfall).

Secondly, I realize this was written in 2009, but in 2012 in Tatarstan, when I was in Qazan about half of tatars were fluent in Tatar, and a quarter could communicate but used it as a second language. The rural areas however were 100 percent Tatar. As for Kazakhstan The entire south and the west with the exception of Almaty are fully Kazakh speaking, while in the North the rural Kazakhs also speak Kazakh as the first language, it's just that most of Astanians, and Almatians are Russian-speaking giving an impression that Russian is rooted in Kazakhstan, which isn't true. Go to Aktau, Shymkent, suburbs of Almaty, Atyrau, KyzylOrda and you won't survive without Kazakh

As for the Turk hatred, sorry to disappoint you but there is none, most of the time it's those brainwashed by Russians, but the majority who have been to Turkey respect Turks as brothers, and like the fact that the Turks do the same.

Finally, A Kazakh or a Kyrgyz in Turkey is not Chinese idk where you got that, me for example I am fully Turkic (Kazakh,Tatar) but have NEVER been mistaken for a Chinese man.