It’s been mentioned frequently in the last several weeks that the huddled masses who were excommunicated from Little Green Footballs and Hot Air needed a place to go, and as a result they’re showing up in the comments here and at Jihad Watch.Gates of Vienna, of course, welcomes all the wretched refuse when it arrives here. We’re proud to be the Ellis Island for the homeless and tempest-toss’d refugees from the tyrannical Ancien Régime of the right-wing blogosphere.
The funny thing is this: our traffic hasn’t risen much, if any, since all the uproar started. That makes me conclude that our new commenters are former lurkers who have only now joined the conversation.
Welcome, ex-lizardoid lurkers!
Almost all of the new arrivals are contributing thoughtful and substantive remarks, and have given added value to our comment threads. That prompts the question: What the heck did they get banned for in the Old Country?
- - - - - - - - -
Whatever it is, it’s not bothering us here. They seem to be aware of the GoV ground rules — comments must be civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum (details here) — and they don’t mind adhering to them. I don’t always agree with every commenter, but they make their points with reasonableness and verve, which is all one could ask for.
We’ve always hoped for serious and substantive discussion here, and we’ve been fortunate so far — very few trolls, hardly any flame wars, and a wealth of interesting information supplied by people from all over the world.
So…
I have two questions for our refugees, if they care to answer them:
| 1. | What got you banned back where you came from? | |
| 2. | Are you doing the same naughty things here? |
I look forward to the answers in the comments; they’re bound to be entertaining reading.
161 comments:
I got banned here, along with Thomas and jihadwatcher.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that the BNP was genuinely trying to distance itself from antisemitism.
Since then, I've been having an increasingly hard time understanding why the BNP's identity politics are so loathsome when every other ethnic group is allowed theirs. Seems that there's a horrible double-standard to me, and certain people seem to only hyperventilate when whites practice it.
I guess if you could somehow ban all identity politics, that would be the best. That just doesn't seem to be human nature though, and banning identity politics would just infringe upon the right to free association.
I'm starting to wonder if the ideas Western whites in particular have adopted regarding race are as utopian as Marx's were about class and economics.
The Biblical command to "love your neighbor" definitely transcends race, as does the idea that all men are created equal. That's the thing that makes me unsure about identity politics.
I probably shouldn't publish this comment, but oh well. Flame on.
I'm not banned (yet, at least) and I don't see why I ever would be (I always try to be thoughtful and polite, although sometimes I make mistakes).
True, there are people who are simple minded at LGF but the same is true of any large organization. I've seen a couple of people here from LGF that I know for a fact to have been duplicitous in their posts and they are now pretending otherwise.
Fine. Whatever makes you feel better.
I've also disagreed with Charles on more than one occasion and I wasn't banned for it. I kind of laugh when I hear people say that Charles bans people for dissent. I know for a first hand fact that it's not true. Charles has a little more thicker skin than people give him credit for IMHO.
No, what bothers me is that there is some Jihadi somewhere in Europe laughing about the anti-jihad movement splintering into pieces while he gets to keep pillaging Europe--and we are helping him.
Together we are strong, separately we are weak. Benjamin Franklin said it best: "We had best hang together or we shall surely hang separately". Funny thing....I was mocked by some posters on LGF for making this very same statement (like I said: some of the posters at LGF have simple minds).
Doesn't mean that I'm going to stop trying to defeat the jihadi's.
The problem, as I see it, is that the posters at LGF want the impossible: a political party that is pure as the driven snow.
For those from LGF who are reading this: IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!
Never.
Never.
Never.
Political parties or groups of people are made up of exactly that: people.
People are imperfect and they come in all flavors, mindsets and colors. For those at LGF to say: "NO! Any group who we would have help us defeat the Islamofascists must be as pure as the driven snow!" is childish and unrealistic. Life is all about comprimise...but not with some of the LGF posters! They would rather DIE than make any concessions what-so-ever.
Silly, actually, since they have ALREADY made tacic concessions in their lives (think NASA space program and the Freeways of the USA). I could find more examples, but they would be too tedious to mention....
~Norsk Troll
I guess I count as an ex-LGFer. I had visited you before but not bookmarked you.
I was a registered lizard for about 2 years. LGF served most of my, err, anti-jihad needs and for the rest, as a 'Euroweenie', I also like to spend time at EUreferendum, Brussels Journal and Samizdata.net (being of a libertarian bent).
About 5 months ago I started to become disillusioned with LGF. It was mostly the anti-European comments that were doing for me. For whilst the stories posted were interesting, when one would try to correct some of the more wild accusations thrown at us all you got back was more abuse. And not even clever or witty abuse either. Just plain, ugly, USA-is-great-Europeans-are-crap, abuse.
What had been entertaining banter, with a bit of good-natured back and forth, started to become ugly. And I, to my regret, started to become a bit ugly too. I could see I was becoming tainted.
Then this spat broke out. And reading through as much of the information as possible (I have a job you know! It's difficult to keep up!) I came to the conclusion that LGF had lost it. That both CJ and his lizards simply didn't understand the European situation and, perhaps more importantly, had no wish to.
I lived in the States for 2 years (Ohio and Pennsylvania) and have a lot of friends over there. I am defintely pro-USA. But this was too much.
I wrote a valedictory comment on LGF (was pretty drunk at the time so may have made a few wild accusations - but hey! - in vino est veritas) and haven't been back since. I may be banned, I simply don't know, but following the Fjordman links (re)discovered GoV and have been a regular here since. The articles are well written, I like the overall philosophy of the site and the commenters seem to be of a far better calibre.
OK, that's my story. Soz for wibbling on. Am enjoying my stay and hope it will be a long one.
I was never registered at LGF nor was I ever much of a lurker there and though it never fell on me, as a recently registered commenter at Hot Air, I was there on Bloody Sunday when Jihad Watcher and others were on the receiving end of Allah Pundit's bloody axe. I must say I have never felt the same level of comfort there since.
I had been at Hot Air from day one and it was a sad day indeed when it all came down, seemingly out of no where.
As for coming here, well I was referred by MM no less for this article by Fjordman. Soon after my visits became daily and then twice or more daily. Finally I got the courage to register here. But to do so I had to open a blog which meant doing business with Google, something you should know, I only relented to, with the greatest reluctance.
There is another list here, posted by USorThem last week, and growing.
I am zionistentity at LGF and have not been banned. While I appreciate Charles' position, I do not agree with it. I think SorenK and EtNorskTroll describe my view of the matter well. If Europe goes, we all go. So stand together we must.
I would add though, that I am a gentile and a Christian who loves, supports, and defends Israel, a Classical liberal (Voltaire, Adam Smith, etc...), and an American Patriot. I do not post much anywhere but have enjoyed reading LGF and continue to enjoy reading GoV and others.
Thank you and keep up the great work!
prcaldude wrote:
I've been having an increasingly hard time understanding why the BNP's identity politics are so loathsome when every other ethnic group is allowed theirs. Seems that there's a horrible double-standard to me, and certain people seem to only hyperventilate when whites practice it.
People who oppose "identity politics" amongst European patriot groups (e.g. the BNP), yet claim to be against the Islamicization of Europe, are both confused and worthless. What are they fighting for?
One fights an invader in defense of something. If one is fighting in defense of nothing substantive, then one would do well to take up a different struggle wherein one will have a higher chance of success. Flailing one's arms about in an attempt to prevent being hit by the wind, is an example of an endeavor with a higher chance of success. (This is verbose language to say that there is 0 possibility of winning if you are not fighting for anything [substantive]).
If we are not fighting to explicitly save the ancient people(s) of Europe from genetic and cultural obliteration, from being drowned in a sea of alien blood and crushed by an avalanche of alien folkways, then what are we doing, if not flailing our arms in the wind?
Those who say we are defending "ideas" or some spin-off thereof, should earnestly ask themselves a serious question. Let us say that the antijihadists "win", and four generations from now, Europeans enjoy great freedom, peace, and prosperity, and the presence of the Islamic religion in Europe is next to naught. BUT, the population of this free, non-Islamic Europe is genetically heavily Arab-Semitic, Black-African, South-Asian, Oriental, etc.? Our distant descendants being free of Islam but genetically-alien from us and our ancestors. Or, in other words, the veritable extinction of that peculiar but prolific species known as European Man.
If you are NOT ok with the preceding sentence occuring, then you might just be a real patriot. If you are NOT ok with it but are too afraid to speak honestly about your beliefs, welcome to the world of the right-wing blogosphere (and most of the rest of society, sadly).
The point is, this whole struggle is ALL ABOUT "identity politics", including but not limited to the BLOOD aspect. LGF is not a useful site at all to real patriots, judging by their apparent leftist views on most subjects, as evidenced by recent events.
You forgot to mention banned from freerepublic.com also.
Thanks for bringing up the subject the rebel lizards, scattered in disarray. Perhaps similar to Russians when the Germans turned on them during WWII.
Well, they say things happen for a reason. I am grateful for being banned from littlegreensnotballs, because I was ripped away from the mass hypnotic echo chamber and forced to think for myself. I began to read other websites, with an open mind.
My motivation for visiting lgf was the terror attacks in Israel, and the constant antisemitism that I am doomed to endure forever. Lgf seemed to be a sanctuary, but then again, no...I would be regularly subjected to linguistic antisemitic pogroms there, and the protagonists have not been banned.
Whenever I complained about the lack of employment and illegal immigration, I would be taunted, "Jew-baited" and I began to notice that many attackers were probably Catholic. The last time I posted at lgf, I complained about illegal immigration, and was confronted by a blogger that turned the issue into a Catholic one. I began to notice a pattern. I was blogging for knowledge. I wanted to understand lgf and the world in general.
After a few years of internet research, I have concluded that:
The Vatican controls the Bank of England, and that the American Revolutionary War was essentially lost, because the enemy has gained control of the government. For example: the Federal Reserve. It is clearly obvious that bankers and globalist investors control the economy, and so control corporations, and corrupt the government.
Clearly, after the French Revolution, fascism has evolved.
Lgf type sites feed off of the WWII era mentality of the good war fought for a good cause. There s a REASON that lgf flames people who think! The reason is that the truth is so stark naked outrageous, so terribly incriminating, that even Kennedy was dispatched for even mentioning it (and for reinstating the silver standard). Just look at poor Lincoln, who warned that Jesuit assassins would get him eventually.
Lgf does not want to discuss how American corporations enabled and invested in Nazi Germany, how American corporations profited. Just look at IBM! Do the research for yourself, the ugly truth is easily available.
The globalist expansion of fascism is being done under the guise of American patriotism. False flag operations such as those used by the Nazis are used today. Only they are more refined, having benefited from years of careful refinement. Psyops has become an art.
People do not realize or understand what is happening. Lgf serves the globalist corporate slavers. They support Israel, but with an agenda: the fascist control of the world. Israel is used as a puppet, I believe that after lgf types get what they need from Israel, their true colors will show.
Keep in mind that humans are insane, easily manipulated and exploited. People are easily fooled and believe stupid things, for it is human nature. The state of the world is a reflection of the "human condition".
Lgf supports the corporate globalists, the same forces that created the Nazis, and continue to wreak death and misery even today. It is VERBOTEN to dissent at lgf! Troublemakers, free thinkers, those who cross corporate globalist interests will be given "the treatment".
I’m not sure if it was GoV (Baron, Dymphna or a commenter), but someone once described LGF as an Echo Chamber. This person hit the nail on the head.
LGF was always in my queue of anti-jihad sites to check for daily information. On several occasions I attempted to read through some of the comments on various postings, but it is always the same old regurgitation regardless of topic. Since this flame war began I have not been visiting the site regularly due to their inability to confront the accused with a rational and open debate.
As Fjordman pointed out, there is nothing on the site that is analyzed. They offer no solutions. Only a ‘Mob Mentality’ as dictated by Charles.
Honestly, I’ll check back there from time to time for news as I do consider LGF to be a valuable resource in the counter-jihad. However, one thing Lizards do need to realize is that thoughtful discourse and action is needed to defeat the Great Islamic Jihad, not patting each other on the back for the best one-line comment within the first 10 posts.
@EtNorskTroll: Just curious, but -
In your opinion, was Fjordman banned from LGF for being thoughtless? Or impolite?
I'm one of the unbanned (I tend to keep my mouth shut.) I wanted to draw everyone's attention to an interesting piece from Spengler in the October First Things, newly available to non-subscribers.
He's discussing Franz Rosenzweig, the German-Jewish theologian and his understanding of Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
The whole thing is worth reading. Among the interesting things that
Rosenzweig says is that despite appearances, Islam is fundamentally
pagan.
Spengler goes on to say something which puts the recent disagreements
over Vlaams Belang, etc into context:
"In the post-Holocaust world, after neopaganism nearly conquered
Europe, Rosenzweig’s contention that Christianity requires the presence of the Jews found great resonance. Yet his formulation stems from a theological sociology with broader application. Pagans, Rosenzweig explained, have only the fragile and ultimately futile effort to preserve their physical continuity through blood and soil. Their hope for immortality takes the form of a perpetual fight for physical existence, which one day they must lose. Rosenzweig’s sociology of religion thus offers unique insights into the origin and nature of civilizational conflict when he argues that a pagan people, ever sentient of the fragility of their existence, are always prepared to fight to the death."
Read it all at http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6040
AAAAHHHHhhhh. I hate this unpredictable comments thingy!
So I retype...
I was banned from LGF for proclaiming myself a "Prussian Nationlist". Allegedly some numbnuts slapped a swatika on that moniker and goostestepped it into CJ's field of vision. I am a descendant of the Hollenzollern family, and damned proud of it. Prussians were the last check on German hegemons, after all, and I would love to see the Prussian nation reborn.
My oh so politically correct father referred to a Prussian as "an orgy between a Kraut, a Pollock, and a Jew, no one claimed the baby". That's about right, and I'll take it.
I was banned for being Prussian, white, and not PC enough for a left-coast web-maven who won't grow up enough to cut his damned hair.
I've posted this before at GoV but since this thread is exactly on point...
I have a page on my blog dedicated to listing those banned from LGF:
http://www.usorthemonline.com/wordpress/?p=82
I add another post everytime I find another who has been banned so for those on this thread, if you don't mind, I'll just cut & paste into my list.
That makes me conclude that our new commenters are former lurkers who have only now joined the conversation.
BINGO Baron. Banning gave me impetus to post here. I'm also learning, re-reading my prior post, how much my spelling sucks... ;-)
PRCaldude
Your link is to AllahPundit- I guess you were banned there also- what got you banned from LGF? and Thomas and jihadwatcher?
Rosenzweig’s contention that Christianity requires the presence of the Jews
Boy is this a pretty absurd example of Judaic chauvinism or what.
Though it is useful perhaps as a neat one-sentence summary of the peculiar modern concept of 'Judeo-Christianity'. (As opposed to the plain old Christianity of our forefathers, which was theologically anti-Judaic.)
Interesting that he declared that those who fight for blood and soil are backwards, hapless little 'pagans'. Very typical Jewish "opinion" when the subject matter at hand is European tribes. But when it comes to their own tribe, blood and soil in Israel becomes the highest virtue, doesn't it. Strange how that works.
I've not been banned yet either although I did come close when I stated that Bush has been one of the worst presidents in history due to his role in crippling true Conservatism. I was accused of having the "conservative" version of BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome for the uninitiated). I was banned inexplicably from RedState though for disagreeing with one of the moderators about illegal immigration. Several other posters came to my defense, alas to no avail.
I sent them several e-mails asking for an explanation as to how I violated their stated policy on posting but they never replied. Their egos are more fragile than CJ's have been observed to be.
As many here have observed the cultural preservation of Europe is inseparable from a Caucasian (majority at least) Europe. I made a similar culture/ethnicity argument on my blog several months ago regarding the US: http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/2007/06/post-america-america.html
I will continue to maintain that the desire of Europeans, and those of us of European descent, to maintain their culture is not racist as the multi-culti Left claim, for they make no similar accusations regarding non-Western cultures with overt policies of cultural preservation. Japan always comes to mind.
The Left even goes so far as to protect non-Western indigenous culture from cultural dilution by we evil Westerners. I suppose in their minds our cultural annihilation is further atonement for the sin of being a successful culture that has influenced the entire world. White, Liberal guilt.
Norsk Troll says:
"I've also disagreed with Charles on more than one occasion and I wasn't banned for it. I kind of laugh when I hear people say that Charles bans people for dissent. I know for a first hand fact that it's not true. Charles has a little more thicker skin than people give him credit for IMHO."
I had no argument with Charles so there was no dissension from me. He offered to show anyone the comments that got sheik yer mami banned. I asked to see them and BAM! account closed.
I used the I.D. "Leave Iraq Now". He and his lizard army don't like that name. My bet is he banned me just for my name- not for anything I said on his blog. What is so thick skinned about that?
Banning someone is simple, folks. As Stalin put it: "That man is a problem. No man, no problem".
Thanks for this great response, everybody.
I'm enjoying reading them all. :)
Looks like part of the url was cut off:
http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/2007/06/post-america-america.html
An excerpt, "The character of a nation is a derivative of its people..."
Protestant: "But when it comes to their own tribe, blood and soil in Israel becomes the highest virtue"
Let the Israelis be a good example for us, and our inspiration.
I do most my commenting on a Christian Forum debating mainly with leftists and Islamic Apologists. I use GoV, Atlas, Micheal Yon, Carl in Jerusalem, GulfCoastPundit, Jihad Watch, etc. for information in forming my arguments. LGF used to also be a great source for information on the main page and in the comment section. Over the last few years it's value as a tool is becoming less and less. As my knowledge of the many fine websites and blogs has increased I've noticed I'm already aware of the information posted before Charles posts it. As for the comment section, if I want to read humorous one-liners, AoSHQ beats that place hands down.
I do throw and occasional comment out on the blogs I've mentioned but it's mainly preaching to the choir, my knowledge comes from making an argument to those unaware or ill informed.
That's why this whole European racism/banning thing with LGF just leaves a distaste in my mouth. He has diminished what the Counter Jihad Brussels 2007 was, what the anti-jihadist movement on the internet can do and turned this into meaningless pissing contest I can witness any Friday night at my local bar.
Actually, Rosenzweig wasn't a Zionist. Interestingly, Jews first came to Lithuania while it was still pagan. They had a much better time of it than they did later when the pagans were converted to Christianity.
ConservativeSwede wrote: Let the Israelis be a good example for us, and our inspiration.
How about we let our own ancestors be an example to us and our inspiration, rather than some extra-European ethnoreligious group known for its extreme hostility to european nationalism(s).
I haven't been banned from anywhere, despite defending VB and the Swedish group that Johnson has his panties in a bunch over. I joined LGF a year ago last Summer, apparently during the hour or so each week that registration is open. It was a fluke, because I woulnd not have bothered to wait.
The anti-Europe bias was almost as bad as the ignorance about Europe. I've already noted on this site the "nuke Paris" and 'fork the French' comments that were common during the Paris riots in the SUmmer of 06.
Johnson never seemed to know much about Europe, and his post were simplistic to say the least. His groupies made most threads into ( as I've noted here before ) a chat room for American alcoholics
His comments and actions on the VB matter seem odd as well as ignorant: on one occasion he critised people for having and hiding behind 'false names'
I thought we were supposed to have false names; only The Charles himself posted under his name, as only kings could wear purple in the Old Days
There is a whiskey-soaked woman on that site who is particularly obnoxious: "mandy manners", the Bourbon Princess of the American Northwest, but she is only One of Many.
Hotair is still good, but Allahpundit is an arrogant pagan ( ever met a pagan who wasn't ?) who like to take Cheap Shots at anyone who actually believes in traditional conservative / 'callical liberal' values.
This place, except for D getting her Irish up about the Latin Mass, is a bit tense sometimes but about 4 grade levels above LGF--like comparing A levels to O levels, if they even have those any more
'classical liberals" of course, and just kidding, Dymphna
Protestant: How about we let our own ancestors be an example to us and our inspiration, rather than some extra-European ethnoreligious group known for its extreme hostility to european nationalism(s).
Any source of inspiration is a good one. And IF it is true about their (extreme) hostility to other people's nationalisms, than that's bad example, and we should not be following them in that. Without respect for other people's nationalism, we'll get nowhere in this. Especially not within Europe.
Of course Johnson bans for dissent. Fjordman was banned for that. About half the peopel at Gulf Coast Pundit were banned simply because Charles recognized them as posting at both blogs, even the ones who never spoke about LGF at GCP. EW1 was stealth banned months after his last posting there, because his wife was banned earlier when he wouldn't do anything about a psychotic stalker who was fixated on a poster who was USAF EOD and had been assigned on occassion to the US Secret Service.
I pointed out the inherent hypocrisy of not addressing Fjordman's latest issue (that he had not posted his 'Farewell to LGF' at many different blogs), because Fjordman chose to post anonymously, and I pointed out that in the Europe of hate speech laws and Theo van Gogh, anonymity was the safest course.
I don't always agree with how Fjordman argued his case, but the daily two minute hate threads for Fjordman since he was banned were just getting tiresome.
Charles Johnson has perceived enemies, back stabbers and two headed snakes, and supposed stalker blogs, that are supposedly obssessed with him, so obsessed that he or his 'minions' feel compelled to register to read member only threads to see if LGF is mentioned.
Sad really, he still finds some good news stories on the internet, and did an invaluable story spreading the discovery by Free Republic people that the CBS Texas Air national Guard Memo was a fake, but maybe its the constant adoration, or maybe its four years of posting 14 hours a day without a break, but he is slipping. LGF is mainly an echo chamber that breaks little new ground, where sock puppets that toe the LGF party line are encouraged.
Sda, really.
"Since then, I've been having an increasingly hard time understanding why the BNP's identity politics are so loathsome when every other ethnic group is allowed theirs. Seems that there's a horrible double-standard to me, and certain people seem to only hyperventilate when whites practice it". prcaldude
We have allowed a narrative, formulated by the multiculturalists, and their postmodernist handlers, to gain a complete stranglehold upon our perception. The BNP have been demonized for so long, that we simply accept it as fact, and no deviation from that truth from on high shall be tolerated. Note how any sign of acceptance of the dreaded BNP, is instantly stamped upon by the established media..."Me thinks they do protesteth too much".
It is true that the BNP had their origins in some of the less savory aspects of Nationalism. The original skinheads who were the shock troops and followers of the National Front of the 1970s, were not characters one would wish to introduce to other friends and family members as your new best buddies. However, those days and those followers are long gone.
I'm not saying the BNP are sainted martyrs, they are after all, socialists, and largely the voice of the dispossessed, the inarticulate, the angry and frustrated; never a good mix for a vicar's tea party. But they do speak for a large section of British society which has long been marginalized and spuriously maligned. Also, in spite of much media commentary to the contrary, it would not appear to be members of the BNP who indulge in actions reminiscent of fascist political intimidation, but those actions are the exact behaviors of their self-righteous opposition. The elites must be feeling vulnerable to unleash their troglodytes into the fray, so early in the game, all of course, under the curtain of plausible deniability.
The Marxist elite who have created this narrative, and make no mistake, they are Marxists, whatever name they march under today, have done their job exceptionally well.
Our problem is that we simple proles have been slow to recognize these Marxists as they moved into positions of power and influence. Our failure in this regard, was firstly due to our own lack of vigilance, we simply never assumed that men and women in smart suits, speaking words of compassion and grand expressions of superior virtue, would harbour the designs and aspirations of snakes, but, to put it plainly...they do, and we were naive.
Secondly, what did we think would happen, when we allowed the free expression of Marxist philosophy unhindered access into our halls of higher education, for the better part of a hundred years. Those who would seek our demise in order to raise Marx from the ashes, were not, are not, the salivating commissar brutes of popular imagination, but the well spoken, fully assimilated children of wealth and prestige of the elites who have run our countries for so long, they simply moved in and took over from the preceding generation, totally unhindered, as we assumed all was right with the world. Why are we so surprised that they would not announce their intentions, before subverting our values? Any philosophy, born out of envy and class factionalism, full of promise that it can never deliver, is obviously born out of a lie, and so must live its miserable existence as a lie.
I would like to qualify my position, for though it would appear that I am a supporter of the BNP, I am actually NOT. BY inclination and sensibility, I am a Classical Liberal, but there are no political parties for such an affiliation these days, so alas, I am a loner, adrift in a mist of moral equivalence made toxic by Marxist turpitude.
However, I have no desire to stand idly by, while liars, crooks and charlatans, boldly march us all over the abyss to our destruction.
Sorry to be off topic Baron. So back to topic, I have been a lurker at both this site and LGF for some time. This past spat of unpleasantness, has indeed triggered a response in me. The position held at LGF by Charles and his lizards is in my opinion, untenable in the long term, and detrimental to our Western interests in the short term. To view your personal virtue as so precious that it cannot be shared and certainly not squandered with others whose opinions you disagree with, often for no better reason than that you have heard from someone else, who heard from the TV, that those people are bad news, is straight out of the postmodernist playbook, and I am surprised Charles did not recognize that . First off, our precious virtue will do us little good if we lose this fight. I don't think Islam does virtue, at least not in any sense which we would recognize. Second, to continually marginalize a disaffected group, does indeed leave it open to extremism, far better to engage with the arguments and so bring those forces into the dialogue, thereby assuring a greater alliance with a common goal; after all, anybody who thinks that this fight will be won by King Arthur riding out of the mists of history, or the final arrival of the second coming, is betting on a long shot, and not someone that I am inclined to wait around on...so good luck with that.
Finally, that the BNP are racists, well, maybe some of them are, but I tend to think that racism is the default position of all of humanity, the fact that some people are more tolerant of others is often no more than a position taken by those upon whom the actual consequence of misegination has little or no affect in real terms. When viewed up close where different communities rub along fractiously out of daily necessity, is to see the real consequence of abstract theory, devolving from the Ivory Tower. If handled differently, in a more honest manner, then yes possibly harmony and a community spirit could prevail. But with the racist cudgel so remorselessly used to bludgeon the opposite or even dissenting opinion, how can we do anything but play to the basest instincts of man's tribal nature.
Lets face it, harmony is only born out of respect, and respect cannot be imposed from outside, it must be earned the hard way, by actions and effort. The idea that some sanctimonious twat in high political office can wave his magic wand and issue a proclamation of human brotherhood and all will be right with the world, whilst nothing short of what one has come to expect from our political elites, none the less, is indicative of the degree of the separation of fact from fantasy that so enervates those that seek to tell us that they are leaders of men.
We are devolving to a more fractious community, riven by division, in a time crying out for unity, this does not bode well for our future, and most certainly will cost us much in human life, especially against such an implacable enemy: I wonder, is our virtue worth it?
YOELB:
"Islam is fundamentally
Pagan."
Islam was inspired by the Catholic wife of Mohamed. Research this for yourself. Ever notice how Similar the Catholic and Islamic black shawls, etc are?
Catholicism is absolutely Roman paganism. In fact, Christianity, and all religion is based upon astronomy. The Three Kings, the Southern Cross, are all astronomical phenomenon, as is the Sun, which is indeed resurrected from the long decline into darkness every year on Dec. 24. Those who endure the long dark night have faith that the Sun will rise again, illuminating and enlightening those blessed by the warm and goodness of the Sun (of goodness=God). For more see:
www.zeitgeistmovie.com
The early science of astronomy has been hijacked by politics. It is a real big joke, how easily people are fooled by fairy tale stories about God, and will give their lives based upon unsubstantiated nonsense, propaganda and mass hypnosis. Religion is used to control the masses. People are too hypnotized to realize.
Islam vs Catholicism is really just the old Good Cop/ Bad Cop scam. The name of the game is money and power. The imperialistic imposition of a debt based economy is what is happening now, as it happened in Nazi Germany, as it happened in the American Revolution.
Fascism was born of the French Revolution. Fascism has replaced the feudal system. Notice today how jobs are vanishing, (lots of low paying jobs without medical insurance, basically for serfs). Religion is the perfect fascist tool. The Catholic Church is involved in politics, particularly, immigration. And why is the pope so important anyway? Are we captive behind a paper wall of propaganda, bought and paid for by the fascists?
Why do they attack Jews? See: www.spirituallysmart.com
- Jews forbade human sacrifice. Sacrifice, is central to the Catholic Roman pagan culture. To eat the flesh, to drink the blood, Yes, drink the blood…and the more terrified the victim, the more adrenaline released into the bloodstream, adrenaline, a psychotropic drug, related in ways to LSD. The more terrified the sacrificial victim, the greater the “high” for the drug addicted pagan vampire. Welcome to a new level of evil. They hate Jews because they have been denied their blood lust. The evil cruel Catholic reign, including the inquisition, was an attempt to suppress the new age of scientific reason, and the desire of common people to live free of brutal oppression.
- Jewish culture, in addition to forbidding human sacrifice, provided a system of law and justice. Even today as Americans are losing their constitutional rights, America is prosecuting war abroad in the name of “freedom!” Traditionally American presidents have sternly forbidden Israel to defend against horrific terror attacks. There is a duplicity, an antagonism, but if you consider the above, the absurd unfathomable policy makes sense. No wonder the Catholic/Islamic want to eliminate Jews.
The whole despicable evil truth is not a conspiracy, it is plainly obvious.
The lgf thing is similar to what happened at freerepublic several years ago. I don’t visit there for news because it is so convoluted and is an echo chamber. Any news that reminds people how they are losing their jobs, prosperity, and constitutional rights is strictly blocked.
I posted some links in the original article “Farewell to LGF” for those interested.
Oh, and here's some music:
Hymn 43 Lyrics (Jethro Tull)
Jethro Tull - Hymn 43 Lyrics
Oh father high in heaven -- smile down upon your son
whose busy with his money games -- his women and his gun.
Oh Jesus save me!
And the unsung Western hero killed an Indian or three
and made his name in Hollywood
to set the white man free.
Oh Jesus save me!
If Jesus saves -- well, He'd better save Himself
from the gory glory seekers who use His name in death.
Oh Jesus save me!
I saw him in the city and on the mountains of the moon --
His cross was rather bloody --
He could hardly roll His stone.
Oh Jesus save me!
cad:
Um, really, eating little flat pieces of bread, and drinking red wine, even with the belief of Transubstantiation, isn't really human sacrifice or cannibalism.
No, really, it isn't.
Sleepy time.
Charlemagne:
"I've not been banned yet either although I did come close when I stated that Bush has been one of the worst presidents in history due to his role in crippling true Conservatism. I was accused of having the "conservative" version of BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome for the uninitiated). I was banned inexplicably from RedState though for disagreeing with one of the moderators about illegal immigration. Several other posters came to my defense, alas to no avail.
I sent them several e-mails asking for an explanation as to how I violated their stated policy on posting but they never replied. Their egos are more fragile than CJ's have been observed to be."
It is not necessarily a fragile ego that is responsible. Consider this:
The corporatocracy benefits from illegal immigration in many ways, for example:
- cheap labor.
- weakening the middle class.
- depressing wages.
- controlling the population by creating economic desperation and hardship.
- Atomizing, radicalizing, alienating the population, so they are in disarray and not united.
- Breaking down established culture, further weakening bonds and unity.
- Causing friction and fractionalizing society by introducing disparate cultures. The old "divide and conquer".
- Many illegal immigrants (Mexicans) are Catholic, and the Catholic Church heavily supports illegal immigration!
This is the face of fascism. Understanding is key, then the veil falls. It is about money. It is about creating a feudal fascist new world order. A globalist totalitarian corporate state. Socialism/Communism/Fascism/Fundamental Religion are all totalitarian authoritarian. Whatever you call it, you will be a slave in the new world order. Someday, perhaps we will be treated in real life the way we are treated on the lgf blog, or in our corporate "human resources" (that's nazi slang) departments!
Don't believe me, just watch and see for yourself. Keep your eye one the ball!
Charlemagne:
"I was banned inexplicably from RedState though for disagreeing with one of the moderators about illegal immigration. Several other posters came to my defense, alas to no avail.
I sent them several e-mails asking for an explanation as to how I violated their stated policy on posting but they never replied. Their egos are more fragile than CJ's have been observed to be."
Illegal immigration serves to:
Increase profits for the corporocracy
I was banned at Free Republic,with my very first post, which was very mild. The reason was my nic, Braise Allah. I've been registered at LGF for several years and used to post often, but I stopped when LGF caught on and there were hundreds of posts before I got online. I became disaffected within the past year, though, because I noticed the site had become more PC. I really became alarmed when there was a purge before this one. A poster named Pork Rinds for Allah was verbally abused and banned by Charles, for something I agreed with, but don't remember now. When I checked his blog (can't remember the name), it looked like a good blog by a decent person. Recently, after I posted a comment here on GOV's Ubiquity of White Racism, Charles actually cherry-picked my comment and posted it on one of the Fjordman bashing threads, to show what racists GOV commenters are, even though the point of the GOV post was to facetiously confess to racism. CJ really hit bottom with that tactic. Next subject, I'd like to remind Protestant that Israel was one of the last countries to trade with and have good relations with South Africa, when everyone else had abandoned it. So Israel does, in fact, support other countries' nationalism. I'm Jewish and Zionist, but I'm also a race realist and support freedom of association and sovereignty for all peoples, including the white peoples of Europe. This is a common position among Jews. In fact, the White Nationalist organization American Renaissance, before it descended into anti-semitism, was 25% Jewish.
I was banned on Oct26 for the following text. cheers, Cc.
--------------
Well, all this brouhaha shows that the Lizard army is not combat-ready. Being Dutch, I've read a few accounts of Dutchmen who have decided that creeping sharia must end and that it's time to make a stand. The pivot point is when you don't care about being called a "racist" anymore, because you realize this is just a term of abuse which the Left is going to wield at their enemies, no matter what. So the personal account of these Dutchmen (who used to be leftwingers themselves) is that at the moment of transformation they say "I am a racist". This means they can longer be hurt by the Left's slings and arrows. So they are free.
Note that *actually* being a racist is irrelevant. The point of taking the banner is that you have chosen sides in the war to come. That's how it is in Europe, where the war will be fought. In America we have the luxury of sitting back and watching from the lounge.
So when Pamela says "who wasn't a Nazi sympathizer", perhaps she, too, is making the statement of commitment -- she is no Nazi sympathizer, but, by Jingo, if that's what it takes to have to fight this war, then she'll do it.
What was that saying, "Freedom means having nothing left to lose". Those who take on the mantle of "racist" in order to fight the war against Islam are giving away their possessions and standing in this world. They are the heroes of the struggle to come. Hopefully one day you will join them.
Cc.
"Charles actually cherry-picked my comment and posted it on one of the Fjordman bashing threads, to show what racists GOV commenters are, even though the point of the GOV post was to facetiously confess to racism."
This is why I think this false-flag manouver is useless. It *will* be pickec out of context and used against us...
"but I tend to think that racism is the default position of all of humanity, the fact that some people are more tolerant of others is often no more than a position taken by those upon whom the actual consequence of misegination has little or no affect in real terms."
-Another Richard,
This is an excellent point not spoken nearly enough in the context of this subject. The Human Being is a social animal with a deeply imbedded tribal instinct at his core. Race is only one of an infinite number of commonalities around which a group may coalesce to form a tribe but kinship and thence to race, is the most primary. The break with LGF proves the point while demonstrating how as to how groups invariably schism. As Leonard Cohen (I know, a marxist) once described with quite simply lyrics in is Song, from , New Skin for the Old Ceremony , some of you will know:
"There is a war, between the ones who say 'There is a war',
And the ones who say that there isn't."
Our Judeo-Christian inheritance which is at the core of the Western Tradition we seek to defend, has as its basis, the essentially flawed nature of Man. We must never lose sight of this.
"Protestant: How about we let our own ancestors be an example to us and our inspiration, rather than some extra-European ethnoreligious group known for its extreme hostility to european nationalism(s)."
I don't see where Protestant's animosity towards Jewish concerns of rising nationalism is coming from, especially since throughout history, any rise of nationalism coincided with a predictable rise in anti-Semitism. Are you blaming the victim for its own persecution? What's important to note here, is that we are in a relatively new age in the west, where democratic pluralism --accompanied with safety measures to ensure the protection of minorities-- is stated fact, becoming a fixed, permanent feature within our system of government. It's going to take some time to assure the Jewish minority that any new form of "healthy nationalism" should be viewed under that rubric.
There is nothing wrong with healthy nationalism, ethnic identity, as long as it's not used to promote a "superiority" over others. This of course, should not be conflated into differences of culture argument, for not all cultures are equal, as many of us here can easily explain. I would suggest a little bit of understanding from Protestant in regards to Jewish sensibilities concerning nationalism in general, which is most definitely one of those hot button issues that most Jews are keenly aware of. I look at both Russia and the Ukraine, and see a rise of anti-Semitism that only serves to alarm Jewish communities --not only in those states-- but elsewhere throughout Europe. Those states mentioned have not yet developed the same measures of protection for their minorities as seen elsewhere in Europe and the US and elsewhere in the west, and it causes grave concern for Jews.
The promotion of healthy nationalism should be always coupled with an equal and very vocal promotion of the protection of minorities, that Jews and other traditional minority groups need not worry that a revitalization of European identities will cause them harm. Quite the contrary, a pluralistic democratic Europe that safeguards its minorities, as well as being sure of its own identity, will never be a threat to any of its citizens.
I am not banned yet, and I am anyway more of a lurker than a regular commenter.
However, the mass hysteria that took the lizards in this brouhaha, made me stop reading the comments. The wave of a general anti-European sentiment is too high to bear silently. Somehow, anti-Europeans tend to think about us that we are "weak pansies" and "Nazis" at the same time.
There is a lot of reasonable and lovely people on LGF, like gallopinggranny or migueldowninmexico, who, AFAIK, did not take part in this hatefest.
I understand the concern that LGFers have over VB's requirement of amnesty for Belgian Nazi collaborants. However, I totally resent the fact that my continent and my culture "in general" are being trashed by ignorants from far away, who have never set foot on European soil, let alone try to learn something. I am tired of reading that my continent is "doomed" seven times a day, from people, whose speaker of Congress is Nancy Pelosi.
Iv'e read this thread. Hi to all the Banned masses yearning etc...
A few observations:
"Catholic" is a middle latin word meaning "world-spanning" or "all encompassing". The Anglican creed confesses "We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church" for this reason. It's just a quibble but; there is no real "catholic" church. There is the Roman church, which calls itself catholic but isn't quite, and there are various other denominations that believe in a catholic church but aren't...
Islam is not based on Roman christian theology. It is actually based on something called the Arian Heresy, wherein professors of that particular belief denied absolutely the divinity of the Christ. Muhammed didn't have a "catholic" wife. One of his wives was indeed a christian but she was Nestorian. The Nestorian beliefs on christ weren't so extreme as the Arians by whom they wee initially influence but they essentially taught that the divinity of Christ was bestowed rather than inborn, that he was essentially a prophet imbued with divine power and not the begotten son of god. These early influences on Muhammed's beliefs are evident throughout the Koran.
Arianism and Nestorianism were both born in Alexandria, Egypt, along with several other heresies. They were along the silk routes that ran through Egypt and ended up in most of north africa, arabia and up toward China, almost priming the pump for Islam in many ways. It's a small step from Arianism and Nestorianism to Islam but, at the same time, it's a huge leap. Like stepping off a cliff.
Whilst christianity has a history of anti-judaism it is not, in actual fact, anti-juwish. The scriptures are quite clear on this in many places. There are places where it is less clear, for example certain verses of the gospel of John refer to "the jews", apparently decrying them all. However, it is more likely that he was referring to the jewish leadership of the day, the priests and the scribes who had conspired with the romans to kill Jesus because he was a threat to their power. John was a contemporary of Paul (obviously) and both were educated men... if Paul and John had actually beleived all jews responsible for the death of jesus, then Paul would have said to the jews in ephesus that "you killed him." Instead he said "the jews in jerusalem killed him", or words to that effect. The epithet of "jews" was restricted to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Christian scripture doesn't, therefore, support the anti-jewish idea.
I've now read that the jews and the catholics both control the Bank of England. I have to wonder how that's accomplished if they're also apparently at each other's throats. Do they take turns or something? And why can't anglicans ever get a shot at these things?
Sorry, made a misatake. Nestorianism was born on Constantinople.
I was browsing the comments at LGF, and came across 2 items of interest. First, I learned of Dr. Sanity's podcast, in which she and some other psych bloggers discuss the current controversy. Dymphna calls in. The really fun part is after the show, when Dr. Sanity discusses the show on the phone with the others (I couldn't hear the others), not realizing she's still being recorded. I found it delicious! For other people with too much free time, hurry and listen before the Doc removes it. I guess I'll download the whole thing, just in case. Item #2, frequent commenter Kilgore Trout, at comment #526 on the Tuesday nite "one year old bomb" thread, says : Somebody should let Ed Mahmoud know that someone nickjacked him over at Gates of Vienna.
This is funny . . . Ed Mahmoud, a longterm and frequent commenter, gets banned for no good reason, then when he shows up elsewhere to complain, they don't believe it's him.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27996_A_One-Year_Old_Bomb_in_Pakistan#comments
Podcast: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sanitysquad
I read the LGF comments section so you don't have to!
Oh h*ll, I forgot to mention the ebionites too...
God Bless every one at GoV, the Lord and Lady, our European friends and compatriots and each and every LGF expatriate refugee. I am headed to Kentucky today enjoy Thanksgiving with cousins.
This is a very interesting thread.
Altho not a commenter at LGF, and a reader that maxxes out at twice a week - MAYBE, it's amazing to me that Johnson bans anyone.
If he thinks (as I do) that the BNP IS racist (See nick griffin-1998 holocaust denial), what does this have to do with banning? Let the sun shine on that just as much as on Achmadinejad's David Duke denial conference, or the Al Saud's Kufr turn left at Mecca, or the way they treat ANY non -arab, or read some Cornel West. It's all one thing.
Every one should get to see precisely what racism is, justifies it, and the jargon which surrounds it. Maybe they will feel it is misdefined, or maybe they will go uh-oh in the mirror.
But any way you want to slice it, banning people achieves nothing.
If the arabs used that cudgel the way Johnson apparently has according to what I read here, I'd have been banned from arab forums long ago. And missed so much adrenalin.
Let it all hang out there
Archomix quote:
"I've now read that the jews and the catholics both control the Bank of England. I have to wonder how that's accomplished if they're also apparently at each other's throats. Do they take turns or something? And why can't anglicans ever get a shot at these things?"
ROFL! Very good.
I've been nic-jacked at GoV?
Oh dear!
Since we're talking about people, you know what I miss? Zerosumgame. He's barely around anymore... I think we only ever agreed on one thing the entire time we were sparring, but I'll give him this: he always makes me think very hard about my replies.
Of course then I sort of blow it and go crazy... but still...
Protestant:
Don't think there is a Zionist conspiracy. That is such a huge, silly mistake. I would contend that other than actual Israeli's, there are far more Christians who support Israel than Jews. Remember, 90-something percent of US jews vote Democratic, which is a very anti-semetic and pro-Arab party. I just read about the leftists who got together with the Arabs to destroy Jewish owned farms in the settlements.
As far as another commenter's thoughts on "judeo-christian" heritage, I agree. It is nothing but PR for Jews. The US is very much a New Testament country. We are learning that the last thing Christians need are activist secular liberal jewish lawyers, which seems to be the main contribution of the "judeo" part of the mix. How less than 3% of the population seems to be at the head of so many anti-Christian legal efforts in this country is shocking. The few jews that I do respect are the ones in Israel who are determined to die fighting. The rest of them seem to be eager to turn on their friends in order to curry favor with whomever is running the controls on the oven.
PS comments like this, and my noting of how the only conservative supreme court judges seem to be Catholics got me a freeper ban. Well, maybe the added comment that I don't trust people who take moral guidance from child molesters had something to do with it.
cadgb--are you actually typing these things seriously? Wow! Now those are some interesting theories...
some folks know the conspiracies are done by people of every ethnicity and one religion: Mammon.
some folks came here without ever having been banned from anywhere--having not been allowed in in the first place...
Radical Islam isn't the only threat; but Islamists are joining Socialist parties around the world in huge numbers. Freedom isn't free and yet so many amatuer Marxist like the crowd in Olympia, WA, seem to think the USA is the biggest threat to their freedom of expression...
How can we combat stupidity, when the enemy controls the curriculum our children learn from?
Fjordman banned? I can’t imagine anyone banning Fjordman. I enjoyed many a discussion on his blog when it was still operative. He’s the very model of consideration and patience. I’ve been away from the ‘net for awhile but this is hard to believe.
Of course, I’ve been banned (or was about to be banned) on one major conservative blog but I don’t begrudge them. Some websites want a consensus atmosphere where soul mates enjoy a “group hug” in what they see as their oasis on the ‘net. Perhaps I like to argue to much.
I still can’t get over Fjordman being banned. Fjordman? Ban Fjordman from an anti-jihadist website? It would be like hearing National Review kicking out Victor Davis Hanson. There are some people who add to the stature of your venue. Fjordman banned?
cincinnatus, that was beautiful.
I wasn't banned by the blog owner at lgf, I banned myself.
It mostly transpired from an illegal fund raiser on lgf, following Hurricane Katrina. When questions began getting asked about the donations, and who were the recipients, the person that many lgfers sent money to became defensive, couldn't produce an accounting of the funds, and became combative. The blog owner, after not saying anything about the illegal fund raising that on his blog, simply responded to the flame war with "take this fight some where else." So, a group of them did just that, and started Gulf Coast Pundit. That they would often criticize him and some of his commenters at this other site, threw him into a frothy rage, and he began banning anyone who dared challenge him, at his blog or another.
By this time, I had a lengthy bookmark list of other excellent blogs, such as GoV, and found that the things he reported on could be found elsewhere, with out his particular commentary.
It seemed to me, that he changed, and quit wearing a jock strap, and began wearing a thong.
I may very well be banned there, I honestly don't know, as I haven't tried to access my account there in over a year and a half. I also don't visit lgf, unless some one sneakily puts one of his threads in a hyperlink.
Lgf is good for a chat room, if you don't take things very seriously, or are looking for a few laughs, after a long, hard day at work.
There is an interesting solution to the cultural identity debate in Canada, although no one is using it. Before Multiculturalism became the norm, Canada was considered bi-cultural (English and French) and indeed there was a commission to look into this. The recommendation of the B&B commission was to make French an official language along with English. Shortly afterwards, this morphed into multiculturalism.
The solution for anti-multiculturalists in Canada is thus obvious; all we have to do is to say we support bi-culturalism, not multiculturalism. I even have a little slogan that might be used (courtesy of Google Language Tools:
Biculturalisme n'est pas le racisme!
I would greatly love to hear from Other Canadians who think this idea might work.
What Spengler got me thinking was that if Europe depends on the type of blood and soil nationalism that has, according to Rosenzweig, pagan resonance, Europe is doomed sooner or later. And, unless the USA reinvigorates its previous efforts to assimilate incomers to its culture so will the USA be.
Yes, the USA is part of the Anglosphere. But it has incorporated West-of-Ireland peasants hardly part of English culture, Italians, Germans, Eastern European Jews into its nationhood. Imagine a Muslim immigrant to Belgium writing a song entitled "G-d Bless Flanders."
OK, the USA may be losing that somewhat now. But Europe never had it much at all. And if your problem is that your ethnos hasn't been replacing itself for more than a generation, and another ethnos is living on your territory and has been outbreeding you for more than a generation, you had better figure out how to bring them into your culture fast, because you can be an ethnic nationalist all you want and you're still in trouble.
Doesn't that mean that talking about "white culture" is not only morally problematic but practically speaking is going in exactly the wrong direction?
The american problem as I see right now is not immigrants who do NOT assimilate, it is illegal immigrants who cannot and won't take that chance.
I don't think we can equate blood and soil nationalism with Israel's existence. Israel exists compulsorily because of 2000 years of constant oppression of jews. Note that, the same antisemitism and claims from pre medieval and medieval times are around today (anyone see or read about the Valley of the Wolves, or the Egyptian, Syrian, Iranian and Lebanese TV specials?). The only thing different today is that the marriage of an industrial state to the racism of 2 millenia tipped the scale enough that we have the IDF.
That is a history which does not yield to a comparison to Vlaams Belang.
There are many jews who probably wish that Herzl had taken the offer of the Caliph in 1903 to reserve for the jews the area where the largest concentration of them already existed .. between the Tigris and the Euphrates.
I'm a true Tyke - Wharfedale is my spiritual home - and now I learn the Baron has connections with God's own county, maybe that's why I feel comfortable with GoV. I've been banned from nowhere and followed the line to GoV care of a Fjordman article.
Naughty things? Mmmm. I want to live amongst my own kind in my own country according (more or less)to the traditions followed by my parents and their parents. Is that really so bad?
I have been a very long-time lurker on both LGF and GoV, and the recent spat had me very concerned. Most especially, I cannot believe that Fjordman was banned by Charles. This long thread helped me to understand, somewhat, the nature of the problem. I have always felt that perhaps Charles misunderstood the European point of view. I can't believe it is helpful for the counterjihad to become split, and I continue to hope that both sanity and reconciliation will prevail
YoelB and Epeminondas,
I don't believe that National-Socialism is comparable to today's nationalism. The former was, indeed, obsessed with "blood and soil" to the point that any other considerations were secondary (if that). The latter is better represented by, say, Irish nationalism. Ancestry and territory are important, but (only?) in the sense that they provide a geographic and historical frame of reference to the shared experience of a community of people. This is emphatically unlike "blood and soil nationalism" as exemplified by Nazism.
Epaminondas, I don't know if you were responding to my comments when you say "I don't think we can equate blood and soil nationalism with Israel's existence" but that was definitely not my point. You continue to state that the history of the millenia-long persecution is a phenomenon so unique that it makes it completely unlike any other nationalist movement. If that is your position I must disagree. There is a difference of degree, to be sure - but not of motive. I realize that "Blut und Boden" has an instant revulsion factor built in because of the regime that so ruthlessly "lived" the ideology, but soil (and to a lesser extent, blood) are part of all "healthy" national movements as subsidiary components of a complete identity. Your point on the 1903 offer from the Caliph of a Jewish homeland is well taken - an offer of security is something that should be hard to pass up given the Jewish experience. However, that security would not have lasted. When you accept security as a gift, you are forever dependent on the giver's continuing benevolence - and Jewish history teaches us something about the failure of the construct. In the end, is there any better alternative to rooting your existence and identity in the place that gave birth to it and sustained it, and that you hold independently?
Proflandia ...I really want to respond to you because I think that what lies between our positions (not as an argument, but as an exploration) may contain the seeds of a very large perceptive difference...maybe not, but who knows..however, I don't know where you are ..but here, Maine, it's Thanksgiving and this is one of the larger travel days of the year and we're off for the complete 'epaminondan' communion of healthy and unhealthy family turkeydom. However, being what I am I am sure to be at coffee tommorrow quite early east coast time US, and I will respond at length. Assuming that's of the least import.
To the rest of the Amis, TRAVEL SAFE.
A demain..
National Socialism...
First, it's interesting that nationalism got discredited, but socialism didn't. Worth noting.
But Germany could have been National Socialist just fine, if it didn't imply extermination of all dissidents as well as rabid, violent expansion.
Classical European nationalism is not expansionist. It means "Let us, as our first priority, make our country the best."
It has sortof gone out of fashion, though, as we can see in our Balkan intervention, Iraq etc. On the other hand, these neo-Con projects are not bringing the benefits they were supposed to, and as they're hugely expensive, a return to classical, non-aggressive nationalism might be coming. Would be nice, actually...
STV and The Baron:
A Yorkshireman and a Texan on holiday in Europe are sharing a train carriage on their way to London. After a while, the Yorkshireman decides to strike up a conversation.
Yorkshireman - Hello, Sir. Are you on your way to London?
Texan - I sure am fella.
Y - And where do you come from originally?
T - Well, fella, I come from God's Own Country.
Y - Really? You don't sound like a Yorkshireman.
@USorThem - You asked PRCaldude how he got banned. I recommend you read Just Another Richard's post in this thread. It should give you an idea why he, Thomas the Wraith, and jihadwatcher were banned.
Apparently, AllahPundit doesn't agree with Just Another Richard's assessment that one should engage, rather than isolate, groups like the BNP. I believe his comment ran along the lines of "Fine, consider (groups like) them written off."
I was not banned from Hot Air (I was posting as Miss_Anthrope), but rather chose to ban myself from HA based on my outrage at the banning of the PRCaldude, Thomas the Wraith, & jihadwatcher.
We didn't agree on everything, but I saw that AllahPundit was obviously wrong in his decision. I don't like people being banned for dissent (or stupid comments, to which I'm certainly prone, especially when angry or trying to be funny).
I always visited GoV daily, but recently returned to commenting. It's good to be back home, Baron & Dymphna!
VinceP1974 --
Please don't paste long URLs into the comments; they make the post page too wide and mess up the appearance of the permalink page.
Use link tags; the instructions are at the top of the full post's comment section.
--------------------------
VinceP1974 said...
My name on LGF was VinceP1974
I left this comment.
Another day.. another report on what we've found on google today..
And then the followers all patting themselves on the back about how non-racist they are.
My God .. this is getting old.
We get it.. YOU ARE SUPERIOR.. THE LEADER AND HIS FOLLOWERS ARE NOT RACIST.
DOWN DOWN WITH EVIL EUROPE
Inshallah
==========
I was in the middle of writing this one, when my account was blocked, so never got to post it:
re: #419 Fjordman
I agree with your rational argument 100%
What I find funny is how all these commentators are like.. "We can't allow ourselves to be tainted by the likes of.."
Well first of all... the commentators on this board werent the people who actually moved beyond typing on a keyboard and actually arranged an intercontinental meeting.
The people many of you are criticizing are the people who are CONCRETELY taking action and actually doing something to preserve the West.
That you sit there and pompously act as if YOU'RE the people actually doing something and it's THEM who are disposable... what a fantasy you people have.
The CounterJihad group will continue on with its mission.. actually doing real-world things.. meanwhile you all can sit at your keyboards feeling quite self-satisfied that you denied them your non-existent and non-forthcoming labor.
My little rant isn't directed at Charles so much as it is with the peanut gallery... becuase Charles is taking action in the real-world... this blog is that testiment.. and my gratitude to him for it.
========
My last paragraph was definately in error in judgement. What Charles has done is repugant.
1. What got you banned back where you came from?
I was banned from LGF in early October, for making a word play on taking something "as gospel," to which I added "or Torah." I was stunned to find out that this is what caused my banning by Charles, who personally came on to post and tell me that I was a "creep." I had made far worse comments over the years than this little joke, which tells me that something has indeed changed at LGF - dissent is no longer tolerated. Charles' new comment rating system and its use as a banning tool is, by the way, a very interesting exercise in blog totalitarianism that Josef Stalin would have admired.
Since then I have also been banned by Gulf Coast Pundit, due to the insecurities of several of its ex-lizardoids who had been subject to my withering scorn on LGF. There seemed to be some bitterness that they, true believers, had been banned where I, an annoying apostate, was allowed to continue to post.
I then decided to deal with my need to express myself by creating my own blog, entitled nodrogsgreatesthits.blogspot.com, where I am reviewing my LGF career in excruciating detail.
In the meantime, I discovered this blog through negative references at LGF. Expecting to find something along the lines of Pam Atlas's blog, which I find repellent, I instead have found interesting and thoughtful posts (although I often disagree with them) and have waded in with a few comments, the first of which was rather critical of Fjordman. I have since commented on the thread on Belgium, of which I have more knowledge than the average American, so I felt that my comments would be informed enough to compete in the intellectual arena.
2. Are you doing the same naughty things here?
I expect not. I certainly have no intention to behave here as I did on LGF, and if someone lets me know that they think I am, I will consider their comments seriously and, if justified, change the way I post here. I believe that I am now more mature, both as a blogger and about the threat posed by Islam to the west, than I was when I started posting on LGF. That does not mean that I will hesitate to thoroughly disagree, as I did with what Fjordman posted recently on this site, but I intend to do it in a much different way.
I got banned from LGF and I don't know why. I was posting as thineprof. I emailed the great Chas.Johnson and asked why both times, several emails, but he never responded to me.
Did you notice that he has become such a bigtime hotsh*t that he won't accept new members with names at free email sites like hotmail or gmail?
KEEP IT UP FJORDMAN!!
ProFlandria--
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ProFlandria said...
"[...] Pagans, Rosenzweig explained, have only the fragile and ultimately futile effort to preserve their physical continuity through blood and soil. Their hope for immortality takes the form of a perpetual fight for physical existence, which one day they must lose. Rosenzweig’s sociology of religion thus [makes the argument that] a pagan people, ever sentient of the fragility of their existence, are always prepared to fight to the death."
YoelB suggested that this provided insight wrt the disagreements over Vlaams Belang. While I find the quote (and the full article – thanks YoelB!) insightful on its own merit, I don't see the supposed connection so readily. Protestant perceives an implied corrolary that "those who fight for blood and soil [must be] backwards, hapless little 'pagans'".
If YoelB’s comment is indeed intended to equate Nationalism to paganism, I would reply that the cause of Nationalism is much more than that crude, ugly yearning for “Blud und Boden” as espoused by the Nazis. I suspect that the argument might be better served by considering the possibility that "blood and soil" are useful components of a people's identity as the case of Israel, as Protestant points out elsewhere, illustrates. The Jews may well have been able to preserve their identity for 2000 years with no more than an emotional connection to the soil, but the absence of a physical anchor made blood essential for survival - and in Israel we see the the connection to the soil restored to include its physical component. Nationalist organizations like Vlaams Belang fit the same mold. The tie to “soil” ( and to a lesser extent, blood) is important because it provides context to the accreted history and “tribal” experiences that identify a people. Given Belgium’s history and current events it’s not unreasonable for VB to claim that it is the Flemish identity which is in danger of being extinguished. Furthermore, I believe that, for a people to be reasonably free to express and live its identity, a secure “environment” is not completely optional. In contrast, paganism may well be unique in having no other determinant for identity. Nazism fitted the latter scenario to a T.
On the other hand, I find that Protestant's suggestion that "Rosenzweig’s contention that Christianity requires the presence of the Jews" is "a pretty absurd example of Judaic chauvinism" is wildly off the mark. According to Pope Paul VI, in his declaration "Nostra Aetate" (10/28/1965): (link) : "[...] the Church of Christ acknowledges that [...] the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ - Abraham's sons according to faith - are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God [...] concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles. Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles making both one in Himself." To that I would add that Christianity has no meaning without Christ's sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice would not have occurred without (a small number of) Jews agitating for His persecution, as prophesied in Scripture. Therefore, at the risk of sounding flippant, if you're a Christian - thank a Jew! DISCLAIMER: I’m a “cultural” Catholic myself.
I was banned from the FreeRepublic because I posted a comment about impeaching Bush for his his failure to protect our borders, actually his contribution to the increase of illegal immigrants.
I did it because our constitution requires the President to protect the PEOPLE.
P.S.
By the way my previous post about this matter disappeared...
I can't even say I agree 100% with Fjordman. I don't think immigration is inherently bad, if the immigrants willingly learn the language, and respect the laws and cultures. A Norway with a large percentage of non-ethnic Norwegians who are culturally assimilated doesn't seem a bad thing to me.
BTW, I support America being an ally of Israel, not because I'm Catholic, and some Christians have some apocalyptic need for some final battle in Israel, but because Israel is a small outpost of Western Democracy and civilization in a sea of barbarians. Yes, I mean barbarians. Suicide bombers? People who would give 200 lashes to the victim of a rape. Israel is an island of civilization in a stormy sea.
I also hope Europe survives with an intact Western culture, as Europe is the birthplace of American culture, and as long as Muslim immigrants come to go on the dole, and refuse assimilation, I totally support the right of Europe to shut down further immigration.
"Israel is a small outpost of Western Democracy and civilization in a sea of barbarians."
Amen. Israel is breaking a lot of waves for the rest of the world. It is the most important place to counter totalitarian Islam, by standing shoulder to shoulder with those in the front line. It's doable.
Oh, remember to buy Israelish :)
Baron and Dymphna,
I don't know if you guys ever saw this comment, but in light of your NON-increase in traffic, would you guys like to take the time to do a little gloating? ;)
Here it is in full glory (my emphasis):
Tasty Beverage 10/29/07 11:43:47 pm
Atlas, Fjordman: pay attention to this, because it's an "argument from authority" but you should listen anyway. Your egos are deceiving you and preventing you from seeing reality:
Killian posted at #36 that SD claims to have around 2500 members.
LGF has around eight times as many members -- something like 20,000, with thousands and thousands more non-members who come here daily just to read the front page.
Gates of Vienna and Brussels Journal are lucky if they get eight comments in a thread. These are marginal people reaching out to other marginal people, i.e., SD and VB.
So all of you bloggers who deigned to set yourselves up as our "leaders" in the Anti-Jihad movement (what you called "Counter Jihad") -- and who organized a conference without talking to or asking us about it first -- what we want, what we think -- and then decided all on your own that our movement was going to ally with these "questionable" political parties in Europe -- you had the unbelievable chutzpah to piss and moan at us lowly peons when we had the nerve to say to you, (our self-appointed leaders, deciding all on your own that we must ally with these people), "NO WAY IN HELL!" ----------
Get this in your heads:
We don't need you.
You need US. Without us, without LGF, you are for the most part isolated backwaters on the internet. LGF is the mainstream, you are the fringe, or otherwise just minor in the grand scheme. Understand? And after the inevitable denunciation and repudiation you are going to receive from LGF if you do not immediately disassociate from these political parties, what you call your "Counter-Jihad" is going to remain fringe and discredited as a cynical, dishonest vehicle of neo-nazis and bigots who aren't really opposed to islam so much as anyone duskier than you, because they can't possibly assimilate and believe in "European culture", even if they are born and raised in it, as their genes preclude them from doing so.
You are never going to convince us that your new "friends" and fellow-thinkers can be trusted. Never -- they have too much baggage, even if they have "reformed", which I doubt. Get this through your thick skulls.
So the decision is yours. You will be formally and publically separated from this flagship, denounced, and you will remain on small, pathetic sites with twenty commenters, where you can all talk to each other about how much smarter you are than LGFers, and how you guys are the ones who will save Western Civilization.
(what a joke)
I suspect Charles is not going to allow all of his incredibly hard work, 365 days a year for the last six years, to be utterly and irreversibly ruined by association with your friends.
Meanwhile, the Lizard Nation will grow ever bigger and more influential, and you will only be able to watch in envy from the sidelines, self-marginalized, and thoroughly convinced that you guys are the real saviors of us all. You couldn't be more wrong.
**********************
So obviously you can't equate number of commenters to popularity or who is or isn't mainstream. And I note who it was that organized that conference.. his name doesn't start with a C and end in S.
Just who has become marginalized in all this? Does "Tasty Beverage" think CJ will be invited to the next conference? Has CJ done any of his own?
Feh. I'm with GoV and here to stay.
Irrelevant is as irrelevant does...
The French dismissed England as an isolated backwater right before we kicked their arses at Agincourt.
GoV and the other members who organised the conference are the driving force now, no matter how small each individual blog might be they are, together, a force to be reckoned with and the distributed nature of this force makes it rather more effective than a highly centralised response.
I think this should put a line under the issue now, personally. It's tiring everyone.
AngleofRepose --
Yes, I saw that comment, back during the early days of all this, when the Eye of Sauron first turned its baleful and lidless gaze upon the poor little hobbits here at Gates of Vienna.
In fact, it was probably that particular thread which made me give up reading LGF.
The funny thing is, the relative traffic numbers are only significant if you let your ego get snared by all of this, and are pridefully attached to a single blog or website.
What's being overlooked is the network that has formed, which is enormous. I don't know how many bloggers are involved -- there are quite a few of them -- but their numbers collectively amount to far more than those of LGF.
And, although we have our varieties of differences, we agree on the essential things. Most importantly, we know that we are in this together.
If you add in the forums and other types of websites, the members of political parties, activists and ordinary folk who are involved but only lurk at the blogs, you can see that the movement is enormous.
It just doesn't show on Technorati, Alexa, or TTLB.
That's why all of this crap doesn't bother me all that much. It's annoying and oocasionally infuriating, but it's trivial and transient, and it will pass.
Something is happening that's real and good and true, something that will make a difference. It can't be seriously impeded by bloggers, journalists, or even politicians, because it arises from a source which is inherently unstoppable: the people themselves.
I know this because I'm actively involved with it. I'm a nobody; I'm just one guy bloviating here and emailing people I know and occasionally taking planes to discuss things at meetings. My part is insignificant.
But when all the parts are aggregated, something major takes form. It won't be obvious for quite a while yet, but it's happening.
That's what makes me so optimistic. :)
BTW, LGF attacked both the SD and VB as neo-Nazis. While the SD seems to have had a questionable history, they also seem to have made a serious attempt to purge the loonier members.
Now, VB does seem to have some people whose nationalism goes beyond that, to white supremacism, and a party platform that seeks pardon for Nazi collaborators in the war seems awfully questionable.
LGF does seem to have dropped its jihad against SD.
Anyway, in my opinion VB should be avoided as an ally until they have made more of an effort at reform.
But its only my opinion, and I've not lived in Europe, nor do I consider myself an expert, not having done the minimum required, a tour of Europe as a jazz guitarist with Al Jarreau.
But I hope it isn't so desperate in Belgium that the only alternative to creeping sharia is aligning with white supremacists.
The comment seems to have misfired. Trying again
To Stephen Golay:
Well said, O brother Californian
Sons of California
OT:
DFW 56ºF, HOU 82ºF (28ºC). 15ºC difference. Canadian front is on the way.
I have been banned from LGF (an infrequent commenter for about 3-4 years I estimate) for the following comments:
1. That in my considered opinion neither Fjordman nor Paul Belien were anti-semites.
2. That while BNP and other rightist parties were of concern, far more worrisome was WHY people like a respectable middle class Ballerina in the English National Ballet (Simone Clark) would join the BNP. Clarke is living with the father of her son (Yat Sen-Chang), a man of Cuban-Chinese background. One could hardly conclude her a racist given her own most personal decision to have a child by her companion. Her reasoning was that ONLY the BNP was addressing immigration concerns.
That the great danger was in having space so closed off by PC-Multiculturalism that ONLY rightist parties like the BNP address middle class concerns of culture, identity, and class/status. That it is crucial for Americans to draw the proper lessons -- PC and Multiculturalism as the real enemy, and fight them head on politically.
[This is the comment I believe that got me banned.]
These seem reasonable and straightforward to me, but it's Charles Johnson's blog and he's able to do as he wishes.
It is my belief that if you add up the constant feature-itis at LGF, ideological cleansing of any non-PC opinion, and many Kos-like features (ratings, AJAX technology, etc) Mr. Johnson is prepping for a payday by shopping his site and it's many visitors around for sale. If so I wish him the best. It's understandable. I don't believe though given the market that he will reach Facebook/Myspace type numbers.
There you have it.
El Mahmoud, you're jumping at shadows with regards to VB. This is the large and well established political party with many parliament and local members. I've known these people for years, and they're fine.
I got worried, of course, when seemingly incriminating material came up, but it all turned out to be insignificant. One of them is the 'collaborator amnesty'. It's mainly an internal Belgian issue, as the French-dominated administration has been harassing 80-year olds for some benign things they've done in their past, revoking pension benefits and the like. People who for 60+ years after the war just were ordinary, good citizens. The proposed amnesty is there to let the matter rest and permit these old people to live the rest of their lives in peace. All the significant collaborators (hopefully) got their due judgement, and they probably all died from old age anyway.
The issue is benign, and certainly not symptomatic of some deeper sympatetic attitude to nazi ideology. Actually, I was more concerned with SD in connection with the conference (because I knew hardly anything about them), but they also answered pretty well to the stuff brought up.
VB happens to be so much larger, so many more people involved, you'll always be able to find someone in VB who 15 years ago had a beer with some ex-Nazi. That picture, too, turned out to be of no significance. The person having the drink with ex-Nazi was not an active member of VB back then. The picture was taken as part of his research for some project and had nothing to do with political sympaties.
It's big work to go through all the evidence. CVF has the mountain.
Ed Mahmoud:
I've read LGF and you stand out for obvious reasons -- now that you're here, do we get weather reports?
:-)
Sonja, you are free to accuse anyone of being neo-Nazis for all I care.
As regards the Vlaams Belang, the actual neo-Nazis (fringe group) in Belgium hate them. VB has so many connections to Jews and Israel (Flanders, too), that accusations of anti-Semitism are smears, no more.
While it's too late in the night to look at the details of the material you posted, I'll repeat a very intelligent statement by VB MEP Philip Claeys regarding the Holocaust 'memorial resolution' that VB abstained from in the European Parliament. One of the main reasons they refused to vote for this one was that it would trivialize the Holocaust, that is, cover up how huge a crime it really was. The statement is also clear with regards to nazi ideology.
Feel free to pull the break on the anti-Jihad movement for all I care. Or hang out with the Charles-fans at LGF. Or go seek out the real neo-Nazis and bunk some skull. I heard that Germany and the Czech Republic have some.
European Parliament web
Statement by Philip Claeys:
We are discussing a resolution on the commemoration of the Holocaust, anti-Semitism and racism. We could have expected a text that pays tribute to the victims of the Holocaust with, in all serenity, an appeal never to forget this gruesome chapter in European history so that this can never be repeated. My party, the Vlaams Belang, could obviously have agreed to a resolution to that effect, together with 99% of the MEPs, but the resolution that is here before us for discussion has not been conceived in that spirit. The horrors of the Second World War have all been disgracefully piled onto one heap along with, and I quote, the rise of extremist and xenophobic parties and growing public acceptance of their views. Paragraph 5 of the resolution literally calls for the current fight against racism, xenophobia and anti-Semitism to be set against the background of the Shoah in education.
My party, the Vlaams Belang, is neither extremist nor xenophobic, but the standard politically correct terminology is very much against the current democratic political parties that make a stand for maintaining national identity. The traditional political groups simply want to demonise a number of successful and growing competitors at the expense of the Holocaust victims. This is not only an insult to millions of voters in Europe but, what is worse, these cheap political games trivialise the horrors of totalitarian regimes, including National Socialism. Another worrying aspect is the appeal for, and I quote, a ban on incitement to racial and religious hatred throughout the EU whilst guaranteeing legitimate free speech. According to the traditional groups, there is apparently such a thing as illegitimate free speech which must be stopped at all costs. They seem to forget that freedom of speech only exists if it also applies to political opponents. Aberrations of this kind come as no surprise, given the fact that this resolution was submitted by the Communist group.
Stephen Golay:
My my... feeling better getting that off your chest?
Your complete heartlessness certainly didn't persuade me to your viewpoint.
I'm very critical of Europe (in general) myself but after reading what you wrote, I almost feel like a Europhile just from the visceral reaction.
"That's what makes me so optimistic. :) posted above by the Baron
Actually, that IS what makes US so optimistic!
By the way, I have not been banned at TOS . . .yet. I've posted about 1K comments under a different nic at TOS since 2004, rarely offering opinion, rather I would offer a link or respond to a question. I noticed that after Charles added the rating feature to comments, I would participate more in the threads by rating comments with + if I agreed, or - if I did not. When this 'disagreement' surfaced, it became obvious that Charles was paying closer attention to the ratings when he admonished those responsible for a sudden increase in negative ratings against popular opinion.
That felt creepy.
The continuing threads and additional negative comments tossed in OT (by Charles) against Fjordman are juvenile, unprofessional and totally unnecessary. Before this "disagreement", LGF was a daily read. Now, I hesitate to participate. Having stopped at LGF today, I notice that total comment numbers are way down. Perhaps when the dust settles, and some ruffled feathers are smoothed out, things will refocus on the challenges we face together. I learned a lot from these blogs since 2004, and for that, I am very thankful. On that note, Happy Thanksgiving to all.
I haven't the slightest idea why I was banned LGF, unless it was for the evidently unpardonable sin of posting regularly over at GCP.
And yeah, I'm a frequent lurker here at GoV, have been for a long time, seldom post. I will continue to lurk regularly, but aside from having a son with a (wonderful) Norwegian girlfriend, I cannot pretend to be any kind of expert on what's going over in Europe and can't promise to advance the discourse here.
I have, however, been watching the breakdown of LGF with great sadness.
“Europe's petty little nationalisms can not be civilization's driving motive.” – Stephen Golay
A very interesting thought. Perhaps a start to an interesting debate.
Ed Mahmoud,
A civilized discussion, such as yours, about whether it's good to ally us with this or that party, is always welcome. It's the witch hunting that is problematic. But so you've found too.
This discussion has been going on for long, and the picture is constantly changing. I have changed my position regarding SD, e.g., because they have changed.
However, for practical purposes a line has to be draw. And the line was drawn to include VB, but not BNP. I consider this realistic and pragmatic. Pro-Israel stands and lack of anti-Semitism, in the policy, were the criteria.
Sonja,
The meeting with those German parties took place through the ITS group. I read an interview with Vanhecke about it, but cannot find it now. Essentially Vanhecke said that VB preferred to stay out of German politics of nationalist parties, which is very fractioned as we see from these many parties.
Anyway, the ITS membership of VB is one of my main questions for them. Why this group? Why not the Alliance for Europe of the Nations (AEN). It's clear they have to belong to a group. Were they denied entry into the AEN group? This is what I suspect. Then they had little choice but to join ITS.
It's good for you that you can feel so pleased about Charles Johnson pulling the "emergency break" of the anti-Jihad resistance. But the moment was either too hastily or too late. Too late, considering that he could have raised objections long time ago, before the conference took place. Too hastily since Charles is quick to jump to solutions even before matters have been properly answered. Most of his accusations were fake, some where valid but have been answered, and then there are a few remaining ones, but surely too small to use his biggest hammer and break the whole anti-Jihad movement apart and scatter it into pieces.
But I'm glad for your sake that you can be so pleased about it.
Ed,
About the off-topic weather reports. It was occasionally cute on LGF with the other OT yak-yak chit chat, but OT posts are just that- off topic. Let's not turn this fine website into a billboard for your hobby by bunging-up the thread. Most people don't care about your weather reports. There are other places to get that info. What if everybody here posted "interesting" tidbits about their hobby? It might start looking light LGF.
Charles Bogle
Hi Jason,
I think surfer boy might be a reincarnation of Hegel. At least he's positively Hegelian about the providential role he assigns to America in the glorious script of human history, as he sees it.
PS. I also have to jump to a solution of my error in my previous post, where it was supposed to say "jump to conclusions".
Bogle & Ed,
Yes this site is becoming too much like LGF now. Even the the number of comments per post are hitting three-digit numbers. It's tough days for poor people like me who came here to be part of a tiny sophisticated minority. I guess I'll need to go back and hide in my own blog ;-)
Charles Bogle/Conservative Swede
I'm glad you said that. Normally I never respond to responses, but since this is more or less a venting thread I will.
I too would hate for this site to become flooded with off-topic and irrelevant posts like LGF. I very seldom comment here because I like go hear what our European counterparts have to say without having to filter through a bunch of off-topic, thoughtless posts.
Furthermore, I think the readers and posters of GoV realize that the conditions in Europe, and to a lesser extent the US, are very real. America might have been hit hard on 9/11, but rest assured Europe is sitting on the front lines.
What good is the weather if my wife is covered from head to toe in a chadri?
Zerosumgame said...
Ed Mahmoud:
I've read LGF and you stand out for obvious reasons -- now that you're here, do we get weather reports?
:-)
Apparently, Mr. Bogle isn't a fan, so unless it is something huge, probably not.
There are a few individuals on LGF, with names like ploome hineni, Killian Bundy and Kilgore Trout, who launch into attacks against anyone who annoys them and isn't a long-standing "lizardoid." They tend to report anyone they don't like to Charles, who dutifully responds. It's very much a social club, with an in-group that will never get banned no matter what they say and an out-group that will get banned if they say anything that even slightly annoys a long-standing member of LGF.
I think Charles bans on a whim and also when one of his old-time reptiles, who just happen to be some of the most vacuous and quippy posters complain (coincidence or not?).
Dare I say, it seems a bit "racist" or something like that.
Georgia,
Well, Ed posted his weather report here in answer to a special request. And I was merely being humorous in my post. But what you write is also good. And now we just need one more OT posts to get to a three-digit number of comments :-)
May I recommend, for those of those nostalgic for the days when LGF had informed commentators, who had valuable, real world input, and people who debated ideas, politely, withut fear of banning:
http://www.gulfcoastpundit.com/index.php?/forums
And there we find a thread with 19 pages of people being banned from LGF for the most arbitrary of non-reasons.
"I was banned because I voted in the new voting system at LGF and Charles didn’t like that I voted down on shrieker’s comments and up on good, smart people’s comments."
"My name is Sarah D. and I was banned from LGF, and I wasn’t even there at the time."
Charles appears more and more as a cross-eyed mini-Napoleon. The bannings happened at September 21st. And there is a mention of "someone" having a bad day. What happened at September 21st?
Charles views LGF as a sort of Bonsai tree that needs to be snipped to keep its idealized shape. He is a kind of low-grade Platonist. However, his snipping is quite arbitrary, and he seems to be okay with all kinds of empty, stupid, sarcastic and quippy posts, so long as they are by established "lizardoid" friends of his and conform to the party line (which is hard to discern since Charles is arbitrary and impulsive). It's a grade-school scene, with an in-crowd and an out-crowd, all revolving around the Charles cult of personality.
On the other hand, he has done a lot of good. It's just that the "power" (a very shifting and slippery concept on the Web) has gone to his head. He convinced himself that he was the Daily Kos' Markos of the Right. In fact, he turned out to be the Chaos of the Right/Middle/Left/What am I?
I thought initially that LGF's slide into silliness was a bad thing. Now I think quite the opposite. It just means that more serious sites will become more important. They too will have to resist the temptation of confusing high levels of traffic, which comes and goes like the wind, with "power" and "influence."
The Left may need a monolithic Daily Kos to keep it on message. The Right does not. There is, almost by definition, more grounding on the Right, and so an ideological unifier is less important. Conservatives will naturally gravitate toward conservative positions, while the Left is so all over the place, it needs some ideological discipline to keep from fragmenting. LGF may have banned and alienated many, but none of these people need LGF to validate and focus their opinions.
Certainly, the anti-jihad movement does not need any ideological center of gravity. In fact, a single site to unify anti-jihadis is a bad thing, as more and more traditional leftists are coming around to seeing the danger of jihad and even the soft jihad pushed by more patient Wahhabi sharia supporters like CAIR.
So LGF's slide into irrelevance is not a bad thing, except that in the short term it provides lefties nerds with a few talking points. In the longer term, which in Internet time means a few months (an Internet generation?), it is not a bad thing. And if it leads more people to look more closely at real anti-jihad/anti-sharia sites, it is a decidedly good thing.
Well Conservative Swede, here's another one for this three-digit thread.
I'm embarrassed to say that Fjordman, a mere European -- and a Swede at that -- was the one who introduced me to the writings of this sterling, most intelligent scholar...(btw, have they finished voting on the Fjordman beheading date yet? Perhaps we could add those cute little thumbs-up, thumbs-down icons to the comment section).
Anyway, Fjordman's gift to me (and anyone else who read Fj) was Roger Scruton. Here, Scruton is speaking to a gathering of Vlaams Belang. Not only is it interesting, he actually does short speeches! What a gem! Imagine, a short speech by an academic...
__________
Talk to Vlaams Belang, Elzenveld Conference Center, Antwerp Friday 23rd June 2006
When I was invited to give this talk by my old friend Paul Belien, my first reaction was one of pleasure that a political party in Belgium should be interested in my ideas. I have never been asked to address a political party in Western Europe, and I long ago concluded that a voice like mine is irrelevant to the practice of European politics, and must be regarded merely as a vague murmur in the stratosphere of thinking, with no clear application in the realm of political facts.
I had heard of the Vlaams Belang, and its predecessor, the Vlaams Blok, as a controversial party, with widespread support among the Flemish population of Belgium. I knew that the party had been targeted by the liberal establishment, had been accused of ‘racism and xenophobia’, and had been disbanded, in its previous incarnation, by a Belgian court. On the other hand, there were plenty of explanations of the accusations apart from their truth, and it seemed likely to me that the true offence of the Vlaams Belang had been to threaten the vested interests of the European Union.
That suspicion was to a certain measure confirmed when e-mails began to arrive from concerned ‘colleagues’ in Belgium – people who had never before shown any interest in my views, but who were now beseeching me to cancel this engagement, asking me not to give credibility to a dangerous right-wing party, and warning me of the damage to my reputation, should I be associated with a party of extremists. It became immediately clear that the controversy surrounding the Vlaams Belang is one that goes to the heart of Belgian politics, and that the opponents of the Vlaams Belang do not wish merely to defeat it in fair and free elections, but to destroy it as a political force.
And because they cannot destroy it by democratic means, since it has the habit of receiving the largest number of votes in Parliamentary elections, they wish instead to destroy it through the courts, and to silence and intimidate those who might otherwise confer legitimacy on its efforts. The very suggestion that, by addressing the Vlaams Belang – whether in tones of agreement or tones of rebuke – I have somehow associated myself with it, indicates the intention of the Party’s opponents, which is to put it beyond the pale of dialogue.
Yes, indeed, beyond the pale. I'll bet he'd be banned at LGF, too, had Scruton ever heard of it.
oh, I forgot: the bolded emphases are mine.
Sonja,
Please don't paste long URLs into the comments; they make the post page too wide and mess up the appearance of the permalink page.
Use link tags; the instructions are at the top of the full post's comment section.
--------------------------
Sonja said...
EtNorskTroll said...
Political parties or groups of people are made up of exactly that: people.
People are imperfect and they come in all flavors, mindsets and colors. For those at LGF to say: "NO! Any group who we would have help us defeat the Islamofascists must be as pure as the driven snow!" is childish and unrealistic.
Between “pure as the driven snow” and neo-nazis is a great difference. GoV, Atlas und Fjordman are now in the same boat with NPD, DVU, Republicans and the “pro-movements” from Germany.
Before the counterjihad conference in Brussels members from Vlaams Belang met with the above named neo-nazi and/or right wing extremist groups from Germany in Strasbourg to work out a common policy for the next years in Europe. All the named parties and movements are: antisemitic, anti-American, holocaust denier etc. They are pure brown sh*t.
As a start I give you some names and dates, make your own research and your own decision:
NPD + Juergen Guensel, Udo Voigt, Horst Mahler (NPD-chief ideologist – try Horst Mahler + jews)
DVU + Dr. Gerhard Frey and his son Gerhard Frey jr. (research with David Irving)
Republicans + Franz Schönhuber (deceased, party-founder and a former SS-officer)
Pro-movements (those movements like: pro-Cologne (Koeln), pro-Munic (Muenchen), pro-NRW etc. are all founded by members of the NPD, DVU or the Republicans and have the unlimited support of VB) + Markus Beisicht, Manfred Rouhs (both former members of the “Deutsche Liga” = German Liga)
They tried also to win Ralph Giordano (a holocaust survivor and real anti-jihadi) for their ‘counterjihad”-movement pro-Cologne but he rejected their request with the words: if they could they would burn me (a jew) alive.
Date of the conference in Strasbourg: September 26/27/28 2007 – VB member: Frank Vanhecke.
Over the past days Filip deWinter and the pro-Cologne-movement helped the Austrian FPOE in their parliament campaign in Styria.
At October 30 VB member Robert Steuckers celebrated the anniversary of the right wing extremist paper “Zur Zeit” in Vienna together with the lawyer of David Irving who spoke for him (and disputed again the holocaust) because Irving isn’t allowed to enter Austria. So Irving sent a video-message to his good friends in which he questioned again the gas chambers. Other attendees were: Andreas Moelzer (former chief-ideologist of Haider’s FPOE), Otto Scrinzi who spoke about the intelligent-differences of white and black races and Heinz Christian Strache (now party leader of the FPOE) who remembered wistfully the nazi-paper “Der Stuermer”.
It was high time that Charles pulled the emergency brake and I would say it was the very last moment to make the best of a bad job.
Some links:
Horst Mahler (NPD) in his own words.
Right wing extremism in Germany
Germany: Federal Ministry of the Interior (pdf-file)
Mr. Golay,
Please don't use long character-rules into the comments; they make the post page too wide and mess up the appearance of the permalink page.
Use shorter ones, like the one I just replaced yours with.
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SteveGolay said...
Have stopped reading Brussels Journal some time ago, noticed it was descending into what could be tagged as the sinking sandpit of Europe's "little nationalisms" - though I did find helpful an occasional interview.
In this current dustup of ours, the "little nationalisms" issue has positioned itself on the frontline of our fight against Islam's Jihad. Can't help but feel those wishing to snare others in this is being a bit opportunistic on the part of those wishing to snare others in a cause with little relevance to the Counterjihad are ebing a bit opportunistic - especially if that cause was born from a nasty genesis.
Europe's continental nationalisms has always been a quicksand pit for more primary and universal concerns, that have, let's say, ignited and generated the Anglosphere and the Great American Experiment. For it is that which founded and nourishes the American Experiment that will, in the end, defeat islamism: as it has smashed other "isms" in its past (a succssion of victories since its own Civil War). America has done so for various reasons in spite of her past failures, and the ever present nipping of mankind's sinful nature. The American Experiment (as "Spengler" often reminds us) succeeds because it accepts two vital ingredients of any victory: humility towards what is greater than itself and the knowledge that perfection in this world never ours. In short, whatever good it is it has received as a gift.
So regarding the work of Counterjihad, that which made America (and the Anglosphere) great is what will prepare civilization to confront its greatest challenges and assure its victory.
This commonplace has always evaded Europe.
Among the reasons why America is so chosen is her success in curtailing the suffocating influence of clan and tribe, of reducing such to nothing more than sentiment and taste. Her comculsion to do this, still, limits any troubling concern of mine over the current illegal immigration debate. She still has the power to scrub and domesticate tribes and clans of their idolotry for the fascism of perfection. This is most brilliantly exampled in America's Great Western Movement across her frontier into California. (Why California is one of God's great signs I leave for another post - or painting.)
Proclaiming this is not a diminishing of the heritage received from Europe's past; but an acknowledgement that the best of that heritage can only be preserved and made useful once it is taken up by something greater than itself. Europe's tendency to horde its best within the Luciferian pride of tribe and clan turns whatever brilliant light it has under its bushel brittle. America, with its humility and refusal of perfection, knows the hard work of preserving what should be heaping upon the ash heap what needs be; America knows the truest of universalisms and sets it upon a hill like a city of lights.
This is also why the nearest incident of European nationalism America experienced, The Confederacy and Southern Agarianism (though contributing some things useful to America's defintion) was in the end demoted because of its refusal "to be taken up", of seeing within itself a perfection that no tribe or clan - outside the calling of the Hebrew people - can make calim to.
Europe's petty little nationalisms can not be civilization's driving motive. European history is riddled with the story of its attempt to be such - and its abject failure. Rome knew this sandpit all to well in its attempt to domesticate the Gallic, Germanic and Nordic tribes and clans into its civilizing institutions. Any contemporary manisfestation within the "little nationalisms" is a dressed up version of what confronted Rome. The sad spectacle of tribes and clans insisting on the primacy of their competing perfections weaken civilization's guard against the Eastern Hordes, ancient or modern: against greater and more brutal powers claiming earthly perfections. (It can be said, that Attila the Hun conquered for an "ism" more than an empire.)
But, even within Europe, there were always signs of hope and promise that the little nationalisms could infect but not destroy. The great medieval universities is one example, the commercial houses another; and if one reads history correctly, the very non-nationalistic development of the arts: the notion of a German, French or Italian art being a very late one (a nasty product of the Romantic Movement). And, let's not forget the powerhouse that Latin was.
Wherever the little nationalisms gained control there was stagnation - or something worse; the genius of Europe was stifled. The tribal and clannish societies that the little nationalisms fed upon easily became seedbeds for (proto, ur) fascist movements. However much I despise the French Revolution (in itself a super-nationalist movement) its promise of a universal commune quickly fell prey to the hydra-headed nationalist beast. Even the socialist/communist wolf that, in large part, fell upon the nationalist litter did not so much as devour it as nourish upon it. The Soviet Union made great use of european pups insisting on sucking on Jew-free milk!
So why did America (and the Anglosphere) escape both the breeding of the beast and the feasting upon it? For one, being an American (or member of the Anglosphere) has nothing to do with - that's right - breeding. One falls out of membership, as currently Britain seems to be doing, and one can enter into its fellowship as India now is; but it requires commitment to clealy tested universal principles - the order of First Things, such as the reduction of clan and tribe to taste and sentiment.
That is why I find this current plug to top drawer Flemish independence, for instance, a dangerous distraction in our fight against islamism. One can not escape the creepy feeling that something other is hijacking the Lord's exhusted troops for another cause.
Europe never has grasped the American genius - of why it never became fascist, why it never become communist, and why (God bless and guide) it will never become islamist.
The Flemish need to understand this. We no more care about their language/tribe than we ever did about the aspirations of Quebec a foot across our border. Button and zip it up, before we think of you as a fifth column in our war against Islam's jihad. Remember (or have you forgotten) that monster that Brussels has become fed upon the backside of Europe's little nationalisms.
And besides (this being a great sadness) the war of the little nationalisms is already lost: a consequence of Europe winning that other war her own children. So don't talk to us about the imperative of transmitting some fossilized little nationalist culture onto the next generation. You no longer can. And we, Americans, have our virtues; we will not bed your wives and daughters and have your children for you.
On my worst Monday mornings, I don't give a damn about Europe.
--------------------------
ON ANOTHER NOTE: here on Gates of Vienna, one of the owners, in a comment to thier own posting, listed a string of links attempting to show, without question, how LGF fell short. Noted, though, that many of the links went to Lawrence Auster's site, amnation.com. Bless me, Jesus. Citing a blind-sided paleo-traditionalist site as an authority! My God, I don't think it is Mr. Johnson who is throwing mud here.
Filling one's basket with too many "paleo" links will bear down and start to squeeze out ____________________. You fill in the blank. Give it time.
Paleo-traditionalism is no friend in the Counterjihad against islamism. In the end, both it and the islamist begin to note the same speck in each others eye.
A case can be made that for Hitler (and the Nazis) race was not the primary point. Being German was simply a portal to something beyond it - a totalitarianism called Aryanism. Witness how much Hitler wanted the German people to be consumed in the fires of his defeat. What mattered was the spirit of totalitarianism. What he lacked, though he tried, was a religion to match that spirit: something that even he could kneel to. The Jews stood in the way for they gave testimony to a far greater witness - to the everlasting nature of God's particular affections. Like Islam, Hitler's Nazism had its founding genesis in pulling down what and whom God loved; it, like that, constructed its ideology (theology) upon such hate.
If not called to account, Europe's "little nationalisms" can too become little totalitarianisms. With the proper capitulations, Islam can live with that.
Stephen Golay
California
Mr. Womble,
Your comments have inspired me to further thoughts which are really too long for these comments. Please email me if you get a chance.
unspiek@chromatism.net
The little white football hooligans that LGF despises in Europe now are quite pro-Israel and even attractive to many of the beleaguered Jews of Europe, who are facing anti-Semitism from the growing Muslim minority (soon to be majority) and their Leftist/Statist advocates. This even applies to the unsavory LePen.
Who are we in the US to judge, when even Jews see things as so dire? Just maybe things are really so dire for all non-Muslims in Europe that all assimilated Europeans, regardless of background, are VERY afraid for the future.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/841445.html
I think the words of a Southern California biker/slacker like Charles Johnson of LGF should just be ignored. He has no idea about the facts on the ground in Europe or how far the Islamization of Europe has gone. He should know better, because the US is not far behind, but he does not. Perhaps too much Pacific sea salt in his eyes.
When Jews start to support the Far Right, despite the historical baggage of some of them, you know things are far worse than anything Charles de Californie du Sud could possibly understand.
In a way, Charles is being anti-Semitic and more generally racist in pretending to speak for Jews and all others of Europe. What does he know of things? What does he know of the plight of anyone in Europe? Is he saying that Jews who support the Far Right in Europe are self-hating Jews. It does not seem to be so, if you look at the news articles.
EVERYONE who is not a Muslim is in grave threat in Europe, since sharia is closing in, by demography or act of the EU. Christian Europeans and Jewish Europeans and all others are in the same boat. They are targets for destruction.
It's do or die time in Europe, and Charles recommends death to all non-Muslims, it seems.
My gosh, the terms paleoconservative, neoconservative and all the rest are getting tiresome.
There is right and there is wrong. Perhaps Charles on Europe's Right is 25% right (it is wrong to be a racist pig), but he is is 75% wrong (it is even more wrong to accuse a huge swath of the European Right of being racist based on circumstantial evidence and a few images without context when you have besmirched a huge number of people who are not racist with the label racist, which nowadays is the worst thing you can say about a person - like calling someone a witch in the Middle Ages). So Charles is mostly wrong.
I don't think Charles is neo or paleo or anything else. He seems to have certain leanings, closed borders, limits to immigration, building a wall against the insane parts of the world that are considered by those who categorize people as paleo. He is pro-Israel and pro-proactive American defense, which are things that are more associated with neo. So the whole neo or paleo thing makes no sense with Charles or anyone else, just as parsing leftist positions into tiny little categories makes no sense.
Charles is Charles, for better or worse. I agree with most of what he says, but he says some things that are so wrong, like the recent histrionics on the European Right. On that score, he is wrong because he generalized and fell back on caricature and his own prejudices. On other scores, I agree with him. He's just a flawed person, and in balance due to his obsessions and recent rants I have lost faith in him. He is wrong on some things I feel are important. That is all.
I still think a vacation would do him a world of good. He seems awfully stressed out, lately. His blog has definitely changed.
Sonja, let me point out something that should be disturbing:
Charles is, in his quest for the ultimate purity of everyone, reinventing Stalinist methods. He uses fickle evidence to condemn people for having met other people he considers impure, vilifies and purges anyone standing up for their friends, and extends this scapegoating ad libitum.
Yes, the ITS group was largely made up of moronic parties. Vlaams Belang is not moronic. They just happen to be so frequently condemned that the stigmata has taken on a life on their own, and the mudslinging becomes self-perpetuating.
If you take time to learn these people - or simply go through their actual political work - you will find that your time would be better spent defending these people than attacking them.
Good luck!
I almost never leave comments unless a subject deals on a very personal level. Hotair and LGF football have never caught my interest as much as gates of vienna because they mostly links and then simple comments.
Gates of Vienna is more intellectually stimulating because the writing style is pleasant and the longer, more in depth analysis engages the reader on an whole other level.
Pastorius over at IBA made a LGF-esque post about Le Pen..
I wish all these wanna-be purifiers of European politics would form new blogs just for the issue.
Is this ever going to end? Are we forever doomed to be subjected to this obsession over political correctness.
Heres the comment I left:
Oh my God.. enough already.
I'm so sick of this non-ending distraction about European poltical parties.
You're an American right? If so... shut up about it already.. let the Europeans sort out their politics.
The bottom line is either the Muslims are deterimined to essentially kill us all or they aren't.
If you believe that's their plan do you think they're taking a time-out while all this stupid backbiting about Europeans is going on?
When the Jihad wants their hudna it's so they can strengthen themselves...
this stupid LGF-induced hudna is weakening us.
I dont read Jihad blogs to get the play by play on where every evil nazi in Europe is today. And especially not from Americans who aren't even in Europe and probably have no first hand informtion about it anyway.
Your link is to AllahPundit- I guess you were banned there also- what got you banned from LGF? and Thomas and jihadwatcher?
I wasn't banned from LGF, just HotAir. I'd been there since pretty much the beginning.
I got banned from FreeRepublic a few months ago.
I was a member since 1998! ugh.
My big infraction was posting an article from ProphetOfDoom.net that listed the ties between OPEC, Saudi Arabia, the Bin Ladins and our fine President.
Charles is, in his quest for the ultimate purity of everyone, reinventing Stalinist methods. He uses fickle evidence to condemn people for having met other people he considers impure, vilifies and purges anyone standing up for their friends, and extends this scapegoating ad libitum.
This is libel and slander without a grain of truth. A disgusting ad hominem attack.
Yes, the ITS group was largely made up of moronic parties. Vlaams Belang is not moronic. They just happen to be so frequently condemned that the stigmata has taken on a life on their own, and the mudslinging becomes self-perpetuating.
Didn’t you read my previous posting? VB actually allies with neo-Nazis and right wing extremists., with holocaust deniers and antisemits. Who makes them do to ally with those brown sh*t? The populist counterjihad hype is only a masquerade. DeWinter has an evil past as an anti-Semite and a lot of VB members too.
However, several pamphlets put out by associations of former Flemish Nazis during World War II, continued to circulate Holocaust denial propaganda, for example, “Perriodiek Contact” of the Hertog Jan van Brabant (HjvB) association. Led by a former Vlaams Blok militant, this group of former Flemish SS members set itself the goal of continuing the National Socialist struggle. The Nationalistisch Jongstudenten Verbond (NJSV), a nationalist action group which operated in schools and had ties with the Vlaams Blok, was still distributing a sticker calling for freedom of expression for “revisionists” in the mid-1990s.
http://tinyurl.com/2ghq35
Like many VB leaders, Dewinter graduated from organizations known specifically for their antisemitism, such as the Nationalistisch Student Verbond (NSV). In tracts issued by the VB in the 1990s, the Jewish community was depicted as controlling the country through its hold of financial institutions. Ties still exist between the VB and small neo-fascist and antisemitic groups (see below).
http://tinyurl.com/2zoo9o
Neo-Nazi Skinheads in Antwerp congregate in cafes in the area of the Vrijdagmarkt, a well-known square. Their favorite haunt is
reportedly a cafe called Gilby's, when Skins from Belgium, Holland,
Germany and elsewhere mix with members of far-right Belgian groups
including the Vlaams Blok, the Nationalistisch Studenten Verbond
(Nationalist Student Association), Voorpost (Outpost)*) and Were Di
(Protect Yourself). After a Hitler's birthday celebration at Gilby's in April 1993, some 20 Skinheads went to another cafe where they wrecked the interior and beat up two patrons.
*) Security staff of VB (Luc Vermeulen)
http://tinyurl.com/2a7tj2
If you take time to learn these people...
Thank you I know enough. I’ve sleuth Vlaams Blok and Vlaams Belang since more than six years and obeserved their neo-Nazi connections, their right wing extemism and neo-fascist network connections all over Europe together with the Austrian FPOE and the Italian neo-fascists.
you will find that your time would be better spent defending these people than attacking them.
There'll be a cold day in hell before I'm doing that. You can deny all the evedencies but they want go away. The tragedy is, that the counterjihad movement will be destroyed because of these connections and I’m not their ueseful idiot.
Sonja, I don't know enough to say conclusively that VB has some bad apples, although it would seem, from what I read at LGF, they almost certainly did. I listened to a DeWinter interview, and he sounded like a racist, with the comment about what would happen if a Black man dated his daughter.
But
This is libel and slander without a grain of truth. A disgusting ad hominem attack.
Your defense of Johnson isn't wrong. LGF used to be fairly patient about banning trolls, but in the last year, and especially since the brou-ha-ha about Europe has started, he has acted very paranoid, and given very insincere answers. His answer to why he wouldn't apologize to Fjordman over Johnson's bogus assertion that Fjordman was posting his 'Farewell to LGF' at multiple blogs, as compared to other people running it without Fjordman asking, was as dishonest as anything I have ever read. He wouldn't apologize to Fjordman, living in the Europe of Theo van Gogh and hate speech laws, because Fjordman posted under an alias? Pure deceit, as most LGF posters use an alias, including the valued member Zombie.
When I noted that, I was banned.
So, no, it does have more than a grain of truth, and I'm not sure you know what 'ad hominem' attack actually means.
Ooops, meant your defense of Johnson isn't right, or is wrong.
But I think you know what I meant.
Sonja,
Most of what you write is irrelevant, such as how VB people went to a café some 15 years ago and how skinheads from this café wrecked the interior of another café.
What you bring up are loose connections (as in "former member did..") from early or mid '90s.
Pay attention to that we are not defending VB or SD as of mid-'90s, but as of today.
The only relevant thing you brought up is VB's membership of the ITS group. Which does not amount to allying themselves with neo-Nazis and anti-semites, as you put it. Without going into detail about the mentioned German parties, let's just make clear that they are not part of the group. The ITS group is diverse (and generally moronic) and was constituted by the outcasts of the E.U. parliament. The motivation for belonging to a group is high, since it provides you with money and the possibility to participate in committees etc. The whole system is built on belonging to a group. However, the group was too diverse and didn't hold together and was dissolved a week ago.
The problem is, anti-semitism is too easy a label to throw around.
Personally, I am sick of liberal Jews attacking Christianity, promoting child porn, defending NAMBLA, attacking our troops and our national security, and it would seem that most major lawsuits against the US filed by muslim extremists have Jewish lawyers representing them. The "flying Imams" have a Jewish lawyer who is also a lead council for the DNC!!
Does it make me anti-semitic to point this out? Any more than it makes me a generic racist to point out that blacks are disproportionately criminal in the US population?
Does this mean I am no longer company to be seen with?
The problem here is that too many conservatives are worried about what others will think of them. The so want to be invited to the trendy cocktail parties (real and virtual) that they are willing to bend over backwards and give up so much just to avoid being seen as racist or sexist or xenophobic or whatever. I say grow up, you cannot get the left to like you anyway, and the desperate desire to be loved by your enemies is something to take to your shrink.
CJ posted on the order of, he had scooped Fox News, so they ought to pay him. I'm paraphrasing.
My offending post at GCP:
"This is bizarre.
"Somebody at Fox may well take a look AtS [Little Green Footballs] to see what’s being talked about there. But so what? There are around 100,000 page views per day AtS, and Fox reports for an audience of millions. There’s no reason for an org as large as Fox to extrapolate and assume that what interests 100,000 or so would interest their millions of viewers.
"So I don’t understand the pats on the back somebody is giving themselves over there, as though they “scooped” a large news org - which is getting their info from the same source, Reuters or AP.
"C’mon, some guy whose decision it is to report news that will capture the attention of millions is going to report on an AP piece that generated 500 comments on a blog? And then the blog owners says the big news org owes them? Doesn’t make sense to me, and it’s awfully arrogant.
"There. I’m probably banned now."
----------------------
And indeed I was. I believe this falls under CJ's "backstabbing" reason. IOW, I criticized him on another blog, rather than to his face, so I'm a backstabber and got banned.
What a ninny.
I wonder if super non-racist Sonja has any startling evidence from this millienium as opposed to the last one in her witchhunt against vb.
conservative swede
To answer your question as to what happened on 21 Sep 06, the infamous "lgf massacre," go to the link in Ed's comment directly above your question, and if the archives are available, you will find your answer.
GCP was created after the lgf blog owner insisted that a flame war over an illegal fund raiser from his blog be taken elsewhere. A few commenters from lgf did exactly that, and they continued to post at lgf, as well. Some just left lgf entirely, with no adios or hard feelings, as the lgf owner seemed to be getting weird, as this wasn't long after the start up of PJ Media, and his ads increased dramatically.
He didn't like some of the comments about him or his blog at GCP, and he flew into a rage. Had he used his banning stick judicially in the first place, and taken care of a few nut jobs, he wouldn't have had as many complaints from long time posters, many of whom are at GCP.
As for some of the criss-cross commenting about Americans commenting on Euro matters, and vice-versa, you will have little or none of that from me. I have clicked on GoV for years for informative and thoughtful posts, and have no intention of telling European countries what is or isn't in their best interest, I just want to know what is happening, and what those fighting the Global Hirabah are doing about it.
I became a fan of Fjordman's essays from lgf, and will place my support for him over lgf's commentary posts on events, anyday.
So, for those that are fearful that commenters like me will clutter GoV with inane comments and chit-chat, your fears are assuaged.
John,
The GCP forum thread I linked above is of 21 Sept 07. Now you talk about another "LGF massacre" in September 2006. There seem to be several LGF massacres, at least three if we count the ongoing one.
conservative swede
Honestly, I'm not certain of the correct date of the '06 massacre, it may have been in the summer of '06. I thought the date you posted was the date in '06.
Those at GCP would know the correct date, or possibly ed mahmoud.
Irrespective of the date in '06, what I described did indeed happen, and his rampage included posters who were posting, some that weren't, and still others who hadn't posted there in several months, but were guilty by association with GCP.
Me, I had bailed with not so much as a fare-thee-well, and have no idea if I was banned or not, and have no interest in finding out.
I find his attack on Fjordman childish and petty, and another example of the behavior I've seen him exhibit before.
I am only commenting here in response to the Baron's question in the thread, and in defense of the fine work GoV and Fjordman have done for years.
Hey John,
Why don't you stick around?
Yes, there were some jokes about this place suddenly becoming too much like LGF in some ways, and indeed I made such jokes. But they where all just jokes.
We love to have you all here. And at least I wouldn't even mind an occasional weather report from Ed.
So much new blood into this forum. This is great. And all good and civilization people. Openness and debate are keywords at GoV. And now the debate will become even wider and more vitalized.
Stick around!
Thanks, dude.
Like I said, I have been reading GoV for several years, I just never commented. I visit a number of blogs, but don't comment on many. I have my opinions, and allow others to have there's without any interference from me. I just want good information, more than I want debate.
Too many debates become circle-jerks, and resolve nothing.
I am a contributor at a blog, which is my base. It's small, fewer than 2,000 hits a day, and the regulars that are there, we have known each other for years.
I am more of a voracious consumer of information, than a debater or conversationalist.
Sonja, kindly hike your PC rubbish back to LGF, we're not interested. We're all racists here, if you don't get it, see what the Baron says. Don't come back now, y'hear?
The GCP thread devoted to the 2006 LGF Night of the Long Knives.
http://www.gulfcoastpundit.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/4248/
This is a fascinating article.
http://www.nysun.com/article/66910
Ed Mahmoud said...
The GCP thread devoted to the 2006 LGF Night of the Long Knives.
http://www.gulfcoastpundit.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/4248/
If you check the dates, you'll see that this one is from 2007 (Sept 21), and people in the thread are speaking of present time.
And if you check the links above you'll find that I have already linked to that.
Is this some leftover LGF trait? Mixing up years, confusing the links, making the discussion go in meaningless circles? Good news is that since you have now left the cult, the imprinting imposed on you can be fully de-programmed. I'll give you my card...
I've read GoV for quite awhile. I do not comment as a general rule because my style of light-hearted commentary would be, I believe, unsuitable for this blog.
I was also banned at LGF in the great purge of 2006 for asking CJ which was more obscene: A poster using naughty language in reference to another poster, or the aforementioned another poster advocating the machine gunning of families crossing over the border from Mexico.
Swede, as far as linking to the actual LGF thread about the Night of the Long Knives in 2006, Charles has, whether intentionally (ie, to keep people from seeing why the original LGF 'Banned of Brothers' were banned) or not, made it hard to check old threads. Even the unbanned can now only check the previous six months of postings in an LGF search, and the banned can't search a thing.
And, just clicking the user profile of one of the banned people, tends to result in a banning. Almost as if Charles has something to hide. Of course, the already banned can't check profiles, which would allow them to look for old threads.
Indeed, sort of Stalinist, although its only a blog, and rather than being sent to a gulag in Siberia, we just can no longer post on a weblog that is declining in relevance.
The GCP thread was indeed from 2007, much of it was in relation to the Purge of '06, but I never represented it as a concurrent account.
Ed,
I'm a bad person so I cannot stay away from making jokes about you "immigrants" :-)
Anyway, I understand now that this is the thread about the 2006 purge. However, it's got 19 pages and I read through the first three and found nothing about the 2006 purge. And I just didn't feel like going through the following 16 pages.
I assume that one needs to have been there to see the purge in 2006 to have the context, to be able to see that the thread is about that. For me after reading the first three pages there was no indication of that.
Anyway, enough about that. The thread is very revealing, and shows Charles not only as paranoid but as a megalomaniac. A cross-eyed little mini-Napoleon, indeed. And every day I hear new things about him that fits this characterization. Like this:
"Charles has, whether intentionally (ie, to keep people from seeing why the original LGF 'Banned of Brothers' were banned) or not, made it hard to check old threads. Even the unbanned can now only check the previous six months of postings in an LGF search, and the banned can't search a thing."
If he banned your IP from doing searches, then you might want to consider using an anonymous proxy to read his site:
anonymouse.org
There are many such services.
Thanks to you and John for giving me the background of the 2006 purge since I otherwise wouldn't have known. I do appreciate it, even though I have a strange way of showing it ;-)
Conservative Swede,
That thread that Ed links to was in response to yet another purge at LGF, and the lies that followed. I do believe there is a better explaination of "The Night of the Long Knives" in the GCP wiki. Direct link:
I was banned from LGF while sitting here at home with no electricity, I assume it was for taking on a nutter who advocated movement activated machine guns on our borders. But I have no way to know for sure.
Because of his clearly demonstrated paranoia, I take everything Charles Johnson says with a very large grain of salt.
And to Baron and Dymphna, thanks for linking GCP here.
Thanks Sarah,
And now I found two relevant links about it:
The Purge
The Banned of Brothers
The Banned of Brothers of The Night of the Long Knives is a list of 19 people. USorThem is compiling a list of those banned in this current purge. Maybe if GCP and The Banned of Brothers cooperated with USorThem, more complete lists could be established. A list of people from the 2006 purge, and then another from the 2007 purge
Btw, make sure to use this site, which makes it much easier for you to follow new comments made at GoV.
Recent comments at Gates of Vienna:
http://govcomments.blogspot.com/
By the end there is also a hyperlink list of the 30 last GoV articles.
The list from the original 2006 purge:
rayra
Swampwoman
reaganite (Banned 4 months after last post)
Sarah (Banned while offline due to power outage)
Buckaroo
jpsfudimo
Keepandbear
Ann
Others followed, such as my husband (EW1), who hadn't commented there after I was banned. And we aren't sure when that happened since he....wasn't commenting.
The second purge, as far as I know:
Mike C
Patrick Chester
Princess Bernie
MoG
Jheka
army brat September 25 2007
bweep
backhoe
Farng
Havoc
windybon
psycgirl AKA jodiegirl73
Got Milk?
Odinist September 25 2007
Fatal
71cuda Weekend of September 22-25 2007
quark2
Aladin Sane (Just hours after registering at GCP)
flick September 28 2007
Victoria (VA girl)/viczin (Sept. 28)
Lizard in Exile/Cobra (Sept. 27)
waitaminnit
cbinflux
Gordon
Conservative Swede said...
Most of what you write is irrelevant, such as how VB people went to a café some 15 years ago and how skinheads from this café wrecked the interior of another café.
What you bring up are loose connections (as in "former member did..") from early or mid '90s.
Pay attention to that we are not defending VB or SD as of mid-'90s, but as of today.
Interesting point. Did you learn that kind of argumentation from the NPD manual 2006 distributed by Udo Voigt, party leader of the NPD, for NPD-functioneries or has the NPD learned it from VB? You remember Udo Voigt who met with VB in Strasbourg in September 2007?
3.14
Holocaust, Kriegsschuldfrage 1939 und Nationalsozialismus
Auf den Themenkomplex Holocaust, Kriegsschuldfrage 1939 und Nationalsozialismus sollte sich mit dem Hinweis auf die Gegenwartsaufgaben der NPD niemand festnageln lassen. Auf dieses rückwärtsgewandte Themenfeld will uns der Gegner locken, weil er a) mit der historischen Ahnungslosigkeit und damit der antifaschistischen Verblendung der Zeitgenossen rechnen kann und b) damit bestens von seinem politisch-ökonomischen Gegenwartsversagen ablenken kann. Bei entsprechenden Fragen zum NS sollte immer nur gesagt werden:
‚Adolf Hitler ist tot und die NSDAP aufgelöst, was soll also die Frage? Als .... Geborener lebe ich nicht in der Vergangenheit, sondern in der Gegenwart. Die Menschen haben andere Probleme, als sich ständig mit einer Zeit zu beschäftigen, die mehr als sechzig Jahre zurückliegt."
"Ich beteilige mich nicht an der von linken Umerziehern betriebenen Vergangenheitsbewältigung, sondern mir geht es um die Bewältigung der problemreichen Gegenwart. Adolf Hitler und die NSDAP sind Vergangenheit, Hartz IV, Globalisierung und Verausländerung aber bittere Gegenwart."
"Medienvertreter/Politiker wie Sie sind es, die Hitler auch 60 Jahre nach seinem Tod nicht sterben lassen. Ihresgleichen hat Hitler zum größten Untoten der Weltgeschichte gemacht, damit die Deutschen auch sechs Jahrzehnte nach dem Dritten Reich nicht zur Normalität gelangen und durch eine krankhafte Vergangenheitsbewältigung von der Vertretung ihrer nationalen Interessen abgehalten werden. Darauf lasse ich mich nicht ein."
Under point 3.13 you will find their argument why they are proud of the Waffen-SS.
http://www.redok.de/content/view/687/78
Is 2001 - 2007 near enough to presence to show how the friends of Vlaams Belang are moving on? Yea?
Oooh Kay:
August 2007:
NPD Leader Charged with Inciting Race Hate
The leader of Germany's far-right NPD party has been charged with inciting race hate after proposing Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess for a Nobel Peace Prize. If convicted, he could face three years in jail.
(snip)
The fact that the head of the far-right National Democratic Party of Germany (NPD), Udo Voigt, proposed Hess for the peace prize during a speech last Saturday to coincide with the 20th anniversary of Hess's death only confirms how twisted the worldview of right-wing extremists is.
http://tinyurl.com/2dzl7p
A month later VB (Frank Vanhecke, Koen Dillen, Philip Claeys) could hug their friend Udo Voigt in Strasbourg to work out a common policy for the future.
2006:
Rep. Duke’s, Monday, September 25 broadcast or Download
–Dr. Duke interviews Udo Voigt*), chairman of Germany’s National Democratic Party
*) A member of the September 2007 meeting in Strasbourg with VB
(I don’t link to the site, search for your own)
2005:
Members of the far right, including Udo Voigt, who leads the National Democratic Party in Germany, and Roberto Fiore of the Italian party Forza Nuova are set to address the crowds. Organizers said Tuesday that they were hoping for a surprise appearance by Jean-Marie Le Pen, the French far-right leader who once called the Nazi gas chambers a "mere detail" of history.
http://tinyurl.com/2fk8ae
You remember Horst Mahler and FN? Le Pen from FN was also an attendee at the meeting in September 2007 in Strasbourg with VB:
An official of America's premier neo-Nazi group, the National Alliance, said he wished his own members had "half as much testicular fortitude." The awestruck leader of another U.S. Nazi group called the terrorists "VERY BRAVE PEOPLE." Neo-fascist youth in France celebrated the event that evening with champagne at the headquarters of the extreme right Front National. German neo-Nazis, some wearing checkered Palestinian headscarves, rejoiced at street demonstrations while burning an American flag. Jan Kopal, head of the Czech National Social Bloc, declared at a rally in Prague that bin Laden was "an example for our children." Horst Mahler, a former left-wing terrorist and prominent member of the neo-Nazi National Democratic Party (NPD) in Germany, proclaimed his solidarity with the terrorists and said America had gotten what it deserved.
http://www.shoaheducation.com/muslimnazi.html
And here is Horst Mahler (NPD) on 9/11 in his own words:
http://tinyurl.com/yuygrq
Of course they love Israel Shamir:
Shamir himself notes on his German homepage that the ZOG article was translated into German for the so-called Deutsche Kolleg, an intellectual outfit whose active leaders, Reinhold Oberlercher and Horst Mahler, found their way from the radical left to the nazi right.
http://tinyurl.com/24zhaz
And here you have them all together: from DVU and Gerhard Frey (remember, he was also an attendee at Strasbourg September 2007 with his son G. Frey jr.) to NPD and Horst Mahler and the Republicans (founded by Franz Schoenhuber, a former SS-officier) and the „Freie Kammeradschaften“.
http://tinyurl.com/2gcprj
And now the „pro-movements“ like pro-Cologne or pro-NRW (North-Rhine-Westphalia):
Pro-Cologne and pro-NRW have the unlimmited support of VB and VB-members are the „stars“ of the demonstrations in Germany. Pro-Cologne and pro-NRW are financed by Guenther Kissel a German multimillionair and the biggest building constructor in NRW. Kissel is a well known holocaust denier, anti-Semite and good friend of David Irving and Horst Mahler. He is a member of pro-NRW. Interesting detail: although he finances the anti-mosque-movement, he has no problems to build them.
Pro-Cologne:
The movement around Manfred Rouhs (also an attendee in Strasbourg 2007), a former member of DLVH, NPD and DVU, hosted a demonstration against mosque building in Cologne with the guest speaker Bart Debie. Some weeks later Debie came again with a delegation of VB including Filip deWinter to ‚exchange experiences‘.
http://tinyurl.com/2al43t
Rouhs and Bart Debie at the New Years Party 2007 of pro-Cologne in Cologne:
http://tinyurl.com/2hg8ec
Pro-Germany 11/03/2007:
Hilde de Lobel (VB Antwerp) paints Vlaams Blok and Vlaams Belang as a roll-model for the pro-movement to emerge from a small movement to a powerful one. Manfred Rouhs (pro-Cologne) thanks her for the advise.
http://www.pro-deutschland-online.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=120&Itemid=2
Manfred Rouhs and pro-Cologne:
He is frequently seen with Axel Reitz (‚Hitler from Cologne‘) but denies to know him, although Reitz was on the list of candidates of Rouhs‘ former party (better: criminal gang) DLVH together with the murderers Thomas Adolf and Ulrich Kloeries.
Reitz and Rouhs (with microphone) 05/30/2007
http://tinyurl.com/29322j
2006
http://tinyurl.com/24rl78
2005
Pro-Cologne is classified as well by the Superior Administratives Court of NRW as by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution as a right wing extremist group.
11/2007
Filip deWinter and Rouhs act jointly to help the Styrian FPOE in their election campaign.
The true face oft he NPD
http://tinyurl.com/27g5sb
9/2007 Udo Voigt expresses his support and friendship for Horst Mahler and Marcel Woell (NPD) both are anew indicted with antisemitism and holocaust denying. Voigt didn’t have a problem with Mahler when:
Iran to host Holocaust conference
(snip)
Expected to attend the conference are Horst Mahler, a disbarred right-wing German lawyer and former member of the terrorist Red Army, Israel Shamir, a Christian convert and anti-Zionist with alleged links to British far-right groups.
http://tinyurl.com/2xsb8k
So sorry (sarc) Mahler couldn’t join the conference because the German government confiscated his passport.
Alfred Zutt (NPD) is sentenced to Euro 1500 for the claim, that the jews had declared Germany the WWII.
9/2007
Udo Voigt demands the right for everyone to deny the holocaust under the ‚freedom of speech‘-law. NPD-vice president Holger Apfel wants to demolish the holocaust memorial in Berlin which he calls a ‚re-education-camp‘.
http://tinyurl.com/yqzkgk
There are a lot more evidencies but at least the best:
Where in part one and two of these series we have seen evidence of Nazi Government links various Governments in the Middle East including Iraq and Iran, according to accounts , a convoluted web of terrorists that includes elements of al Qaeda, Iraqi intelligence, and German neo-Nazis have established a working relationship. In the fall of 2002, investigators with the German government's Office for the Protection of the Constitution re¬ported that right-wing extremists and radical Muslims were increasingly using similar rhetoric. They both decry the new world order, which they see as controlled by Jews and enforced by U.S. military power. Both movements are also wary of democracy. Recently, German neo-Nazis have been seen sporting Palestinian headscarves at rallies and calling for worldwide intifada. Also Udo Voigt, the chairman of the National Democratic Party, has reached out to Muslim extremists.
http://soc.world-journal.net/harabr2.html
Nice comrads, thanks to VB, for the counterjihad-movement. In bed with neo-nazis, holocaust deniers, right wing extremists, neo-fascists and old nazis.
Sonja,
So when we are explaining facts about how VB and SD are today the only truly pro-Israel parties in their countries, how they are pro-American and traditionally conservative, then according to you we must have learned this way of arguing from the Nazis(!!??), and in your eyes we are Nazis ourselves for saying so?
Then you go on at length about NPD, and based on that you claim that the counterjihad movement is in bed with "neo-nazis, holocaust deniers, right wing extremists, neo-fascists and old nazis". "Nice comrads for the counterjihad-movement" as you said with reference to NPD. To you everything you read about NPD shows that the efforts of CVF, GoV, etc. are all wrong. Based on what?
All your arguments against the anti-Jihad movement you find from Udo Voigt. How? What does he at all have to do with us?
So VB was in the same meeting as NPD, as a result of being part of the ITS group (which is now dissolved btw). VB has also met with Le Pen.
Next week the E.U. leaders are going to for a meeting to meet with Mugabe (as part of a EU/AU meeting). Does that make them all the same as Mugabe just by meeting him? Of course, anyone coming back from the meeting telling us that Mugabe is a great guy with great politics, I will think is disgusting and thoroughly denounce. But I won't denounce these politicians simply for meeting with Mugabe.
So in the same spirit, what has Dewinter to say about Le Pen and Haider?
Dewinter: >>We have contacts with Haiders en Le Pens parties. On issues as immigration, we even have common ground. But we don’t like Haiders kowtowing for dictators as Saddam Hoessein or Khadaffi. We don’t like Le Pens typically French views of centralisation, we don’t like his anti-Americanism and we absolutely don’t like his anti-Jewish provocations. Just as almost all French politicians, he has this disastrous illusion that it’s France’s destiny to have a special, privileged relation with the Islamic world. This explains the French’s biased political position against Israel. This explains their alliance with Saddam Hoessein, their support of Khomeiny when he was preparing to topple the shah. Le Pen shares this views, and we don’t like that at all. He is not the monster the leftists say he is. But I am not identifying with him. We are certainly no holocaust deniers. In Belgian parliament we supported the law who punishes holocaust denial.>>
Sonja, your dishonesty and malisciousness in all this is just too apparent. You trying to stretch the rubber-bands of guilt-by-association even further than Charles Johnson. NPD, my a**. And that's the only thing you write about.
This is a parody.
Thanks Sonja for the good fight. Was it R. Spencer who said that man are standing in the wings because they smell a stink.
That is not for lack of courage but prudence. Why would one enter this blog cafe only to get beat up by 'skins'?
And, please poster above, don't tell us Jews are all keen on joining a tainted counterjihad. There has been no evidence (thanks to Sonja) of a full scale purge of said interested right wing European parties. There must be a purge and sentiments and weak indications.
And, yes, as Americans (lizards or not) insists upon it - we have shed too much blood on the place.
My children and grandchildren are biracial (here that means Black)and much concerned on a very, very personal level with the challenge of Islam. I have this sinking feeling that in Flemish cafes they would not be welcomed.
Damn all this talk about soil. Thanks to Jesus Christ the Great American Experiment was not based on that notion.
The solution to this dustup regarding the counterjihad and the european far-right parties must be an American one; for only by looking within her Great Experiment can Europe wash its SOILED feet and stand-up in the good fight against islamism. In short, the European Right must plow under its want and lust for a totalitarian identity that refuses to be taken up by anything larger than itself. That totalitarian identity of tribe and clan shares the same spirit as Islam's totalitarian politics. Can't help but think that is Islam offered the european far-right parties the preservation of their absolutist tribal and clanish identity (for the mutual defeat of their enemies) that they would accept. For, in the end - that is near upon us - Europe's rightist parties do not give a damn (let alone a fig) about the salvation of the whole world from Islam's jihad; they give that fig's care only for their own pitiful plot of dirt. The only tree that grows in that kind of soil is a hanging one.
I will say, the Filip DeWinter interview audio (by a person with nom de blog of Tom Paine, IIRC) made him sound like he has some racist baggage.
But the comment of his about LePen would seem to offer some hope.
Frankly, I still have some suspicions about VB. But I just don't have the time to do the research, as someone not living in Europe, to make sweeping pronouncements. The amnesty for Nazi war collaborators plank worries me. First, are the Belgians really prosecuting 80 year old men? Than, even if they are, it is somewhat hard to have sympathy with Nazi collaborators, even elderly ones.
Ed,
"The amnesty for Nazi war collaborators plank worries me."
Most European countries have given such amnesty since long ago. And there are several parties except for VB in favour of this in Belgium. But they are clear that it's only for collaborators, not for Nazi war criminals, whom got amnesty in France.
It's very easy to take a piece like this and twist it in the eyes of people who know nothing about European history.
I could easily paint the picture of a massive surge, in America, in favour of reinstituting slavery, by showing photos of the confederate flag on public buildings, embedded in state flags, in the homes of politicians, etc. And I could easily make Europeans, who know nothing about American history, join the witch hunt. Because there are so many people who want to buy certified goodness at no cost, and they way to do it is to denigrate and dehumanize others, i.e. by hurling "satanists!" after them.
"Oh, these horrible Americans. There is a growing pro-slavery surge. But they do not hide it so well. Just look at all these photos of the confederate flag... Slavery is about to come back again.."
So some eighteen year old men and women were either forced, duped, or volunteered to be collaborators with the 'beast from the east.'
What young person doesn't make bad decisions at that age? With the environment they had to exist in, would any of us have behaved differently? It is easy for us to sit here now in our chairs, clacking away, and say how superior we are.
What have those that are being denied amnesty as collaborators done in the intervening years?
I think those looking for a boogey-man will surely find him, if they have their minds made up that he exists.
I have glanced at some of the negative posts on this thread, and an attempt at a circle-jerk, and I think more positive attitudes, and a focus on what is happening to Europe through the EU's actions, are far more serious than a few elderly men and women, who have most likely led productive lives as good citizens, irrespective of what may have happened in their late teens and early twenties.
I got banned at LGF because the head retard didnt like my handle that I had for years and dared use it for a post...
"pork rinds for allah"
hmmmmmm
When I emailed charles to ask why he banned me, he lied to the flock and actually made up stuff explaining what a "troll" i was...
really....
@Swede
This is a parody.
I would call it a travesty what you try.
So when we are explaining facts about how VB and SD are today the only truly pro-Israel parties in their countries, how they are pro-American and traditionally conservative, then according to you we must have learned this way of arguing from the Nazis(!!??), and in your eyes we are Nazis ourselves for saying so?
1.You really believe this masquerade? The Vlaams Blok was an anti-Semite-party during the seventies, eighties till the early nineties. Reminds me of the Brother Grimm fairytale of the “Wolf and the Seven Goats” when the wolf would disguise his voice by eating chalk so that he would sound like someone trustworthy. The Vlaams Belang is neither a pro-Israel-party as Haiders FPOE in the nineties was or is today. Haider hat even a Jew – Peter Sichrovsky – in an prominent position in his camp. But believe me, only few people were fooled by this trick. VB tries and this is very disgusting to objectify the Jews and Israel for their own benefit without their affirmation. They preach sermons if necessary but their party platform shows Jews that after the Muslims, the Blacks, the white catholic Italians or Spaniards the Jews will be the next for deportation. Therefore only few Jews in Antwerp ally with the VB.
2.You Swede argued that we should forget the Nazis/the collaboration/racism and neo-Nazi past of VB and should look forward. And this Swede is the argumentation of every neo-Nazi/right wing extremist party in Europe. I proved you with the NPD-manual for NPD-operatives that this argumentation is a standarized brick in the neo-Nazi/right wing extremist argumentation all over Europe. (sarc) Six million murdered Jews will be thankful for that kind of argumentation and they will be very happy to see their tormentors or their successors ruling again. (sarc)
Dewinter: >>We have contacts with Haiders en Le Pens parties. On issues as immigration, we even have common ground. But we don’t like Haiders kowtowing for dictators as Saddam Hoessein or Khadaffi. We don’t like Le Pens typically French views of centralisation, we don’t like his anti-Americanism and we absolutely don’t like his anti-Jewish provocations.(...)
1.So deWinter doesn’t have a problem with Le Pens fishing for Muslims vote at the election ballot?
France's Le Pen To Strike a Deal With Muslims
http://www.nysun.com/article/27822
If it is opportune then the votes of the Muslims are welcomed and all the “counterjihad” is forgotten. And of course he has no problem with FN and their connections to “Stormfront”?
2005 American European Conference
(I don’t link to the site, search for your own)
Hosted by Jean-Michel Girard (FN) the panel debate at the end included the following speakers:
Kevin Alfred Strom – National Vanguard
Don Black – Stormfront
Nick Griffin – British National Party
David Duke – representing Euro
Paul Fromm – Canadian Association for Free Expression
Jean-Michel Girard – Front National
Lady Michele Renouf*)
Vávra Suk – Nationaldemokraterna
*)Renouf was one of the “scientists” at the Tehran “holocaust conference” and here her speech:
http://www.tellingfilms.co.uk/iran-conference.html
Duke is proud that Bruno Gollnisch, who was also as we remember the chairman of IST, introduced him to Le Pen who introduced Duke around the EU-parliament (one should have disinfected after) and invited him to a private dinner. (Interview on DDs homepage with Bruno Gollnisch).
2.
Since Haider split the FPOE in the BZOE where he is the party leader and the FPOE where H.C. Strache is the party leader it may be helpful to ask why the VB attends at 11/2007 a party to celebrate the anniversary of a paper which is full of antisemitism and anti-Americanism and where well known holocaust deniers have their forum. They even deny the existience of Jews and call them Khazars and the Arabs the only true Semites. Therefore to speak against "Khazares" can't be antisemtic. (But of course their is a lot more antisemitic scum in this paper). Me thinks for a party which is masking itself as pro-Israel and against antisemitism they acting very strangely and ally with strange people.
3.If as deWinter says he is disgusted by the connections of Haider to the late Saddam and Khaddafi why isn’t he disgusted with the NPD which has best contacts to Ahmed Huber (search Huber with keywords: Francois Genoud, Mufti al-Husseini, PFLP and Carlos the Jackal/Ramirez Sanchez, Muslim Botherhood, al Taqwa Bank and the holocaust denier Juergen Graf)? Huber is a frequent speaker at NPD-events. But instead of being disgusted the VB works out a common politics with the NPD. I would call this division of work. Shall we forget this too? Or shall we forget the good connections of the NPD, the “new” ally and sister party of VB, with the Turkish fascists of the “grey wolves”?
4.The VB was threatened to fell apart when Annemans accused deWinter to be a “Le Penist” and therefore impended to leave the party. So the late Dillen decided not to make deWinter or Annemans his successor as party leader but Vanhecke. DeWinter has always been a “Le Penist” and is one till today. Of course every neo-fascist party in Europe has its own national touch and chief ideologist, but in principle they have common politics based on the writings of Alain de Benoist and Henning Eichberg to name two of them. The funny thing is that their platforms are so full of socialism that the neo-communists look like libertarians.
We are certainly no holocaust deniers. In Belgian parliament we supported the law who punishes holocaust denial
Oh Kay. They ally only abroad with Nazis, neo-Nazis, holocaust deniers and neo-fascists and call each other “sister party”. That’s better (/sarc) How stupid do they think we are?
NPD, my a**. And that's the only thing you write about.
So you haven’t read all the stuff I’ve written about the pro-movements (pro-Germany, pro-NRW, pro-Cologne), which have the unlimited support of VB? That’s your problem not mines so don’t accuse me to be dishonest if you don’t want to read what you don’t want to know.
You can deny the evidence but they want go away. To defend a party with such a (neo)Nazi/antisemitic-history and such disgusting (neo)Nazi/neo-fascist/right wing extremist allies in the presence is the wrong way for the counterjihad-movement and will destroy it. Sad to say but the counterjihad-movement sinks already in the brown morass of European neo-Nazi/neo-fascist politics. It’s the old proverb: show me your friends and I say you who you are. If you like it or not.
@SteveGolay
Thank you for your words. ;-)
Sonja:
To me you rate right up there with the neo-nazis. Your ceaseless effort to delegitimize someone you disagree with is just as wrong.
You seem abnormally obssessed
Sonja,
We really welcome debate here, and we are constantly reevaluation our positions. We are aware about the checkered genral outlook in the past of many of the nationalist parties in Europe. But this picture has substantially changed, and is continuing to change. I have written about it here in my blog: Part 1: Counterjihadism changing the European political map. If you also read parts 2-7 you will learn a lot about the Sweden Democrats and the situation in Sweden, about the massive undemocratic oppression and the theater of smoke and mirrors.
But you are clearly not coming here as a concerned counter-Jihadist who want a reasoned debate. You have your mind already made up, you have an agenda and are waging an intensive propaganda campaign, where you are not ashamed of even the most flabbergasting guilt-by-association accusations.
Just some examples:
You write about the "neo-Nazi past of VB". This is simply not true. And no matter how many pages up and down you write about NPD, that does not amount to a neo-Nazi past of VB.
Then you try to prove that Dewinter is a Nazi since his list of complaints against Le Pen was not complete (it only included opposition to Le Pen's anti-Americanism, anti-Jewish provocations, and his flirting with he Islamic world). So you add some things to the list. But your list is not complete either. You forgot to mention how Le Pen supports the "right" for Iran to build nukes.
So I guess that I have proven that you are a Nazi too now, Sonja.
Sonja: You should this story that is much larger than what I am pasting.
You should find these people and tell them how wrong they are to vote for VB.. I'm sure they'll value you calling them NAZIs from the saftey of the United States.
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/11/book-review-undercover-in-little.html
She meets more people like Jamal, but she feels they're fighting a losing battle against the fundamentalists. She says that the moderate Muslims are walking a tightrope, between the Muslim fundamentalists and the right-wing (ie, nationalist) Flemish extremists. I had trouble understanding what she meant, but she later brings example of Muslims who vote for Vlaams Belang. I doubt most Muslims are in danger of becoming nationalist extremists, though. As Fraihi says, if they vote for Vlaams Belang, they do it out of protest, fear and disillusionment.
As one example she brings Fatima, a Moroccan immigrant in her 60s. She doesn't see herself as integrated and doesn't think she acts any different in Belgium then she did in Morocco. She came in 1968, got a hearty welcome, worked with Belgians and generally enjoyed herself. She followed up on her kids - went to PTA meetings and made sure she knew where they were going at all times. A friend of hers complains that her son lives off benefits, even though he could work. There is discrimination, she says, but the 2nd and 3rd generation don't want to work and just use it as an excuse. These youth are coddled by multicultural and integration organizations, all in the name of tolerance.
According to Fatima the problem-youth are problematic because they have become fully Flemish. She suffers from the extremist Muslims who demand that she wear a headscarf, soemthing that she'd never done in morocco. The moderate Muslims are the first victims of Muslim extremism, but nobody takes care of them. She supports the Vlaams Belang program: stopping immigration, reducing marriage immigration and cutting off the integration sectors. She sees Vlaams Belang as the only party which is upset at Muslim extremism, who wants to treat immigrants strictly but justly. Moderate Muslims are fed up and feel that they've been left on their own. Fatima wants to vote for a more moderate party, but only after the danger from Muslim extremism is dealt with.
The later crack troop of VB (Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang) was trained at Were Di, founded and run by Karel Dillen. The ideological point of view there was exactly that of Vlaams Nationaal Verbond the Flemish Nazi party before and during WWII in Belgium. Their slogan was “Antwerp is ours” Jews out”. They also helped to deport more than 25.000 Jews to Auschwitz, only about 1250 survived. There were not only Degrelle (you remember how enthusiastically Hitler spoke about this SS-officer?) and Dillen involved in the creating of VB but also Erikkson, a frenetic Nazi, who led for more than a decade the paramilitary wing of the VB Voorpost. They are known for their neo-Nazi and holocaust-denial propaganda. Today Voorpost is the “security staff” of VB. Since when has a democratic party it’s own paramilitary wing?
Another violent gang of VB is the student organization NSV. In 2004 they pursued students at the university of Ghent they “recognized” as immigrants and/or non-whites. The police had to use water cannons against those gangs from VB. They were led by former leaders (and now members of VB) of the now illegal VMO and the VB youth leader Hans Verreyt. Did I mention that Filip deWinter was a member of the NSV?
After the formerly very active ex-SS association “Duke of Brabant” became inactive because most of the members were too old or had died, the youth organization of “Hertog Jan van Brabant” (HJvB) was absorbed by the VB. VNJ (National Flemish Youth Movement) founded in the early 60s by a member of a pre-war Nazi-organization had close ties to VB. VNJ boys are thought to wear uniforms, brown shirts, black trousers and boots.
Several members of VB are or had been members of the violent group TAK, which pursues French speaking people in Flanders.
Dillen edited and published a collection of poems written by Nazi collaborators such as Robert Brasillach and Robert Poulet. VB received editorial support from a Flemish satirical weekly which was created by Nazi collaborators after WWII. In the 90s VB and VBJ had also sites from Pro Vita for years on their websites with extreme antisemitic and/or anti- masonic literature.
Btw: the 70 points paper of VB was created along Le Pen’s 50 points paper and even their propaganda slogans are nearly identical.
I guess that I have proven that you are a Nazi too now, Sonja.
This is extremely childish and silly and not worth an answer.
DeGrelle, wasn't he a Walloon?
Yes Ed, Degrelle was a Walloon and living in Spain until he died. She's making things up. And the thing about how VB "helped to deport more than 25.000 Jews to Auschwitz"... well, I think she writes faster than she thinks.
Here Dewinter talks about the spots in he past of Flemish nationalism. And mind you, this is not about neo-Nazism as Sonja delusionally thinks, but spots regarding the original Nazism:
---
Our party was founded in 1978. It originated from the Volksunie. This was a respectable party: in 1978 it took part in a Belgium government coalition. Would our mainstream parties (social democrats and Christian democrats) makecoalitions with a party founded by Nazi collaborators? Many political heavyweights in the liberal party and the Christian democrats began their careers in the Volksunie. Not one of our “founding fathers” has collaborated with nazism. Our founder, Karel Dillen was just seventeen when WWII ended. He had not collaborated. As a political party, we have clean hands.
It’s is true however, that before WWII, all political movements in Belgium - including the Flemish patriotic movement - have made fatal mistakes in dealing with nazism. But before the war, before the truth about the shoah became clearly visible, this was a mistake many people made. Before the war, Flemish nationalism was politically divided. There were two parties, the VNV and the Verdinaso. In hindsight, it’s easy to see that they made many mistakes. Their most fatal mistake was their inability to discern the ugly, totalitarian face of national-socialism. Another shameful weakness was their indulgence towards the omnipresent anti-Semitism of the interbellum. This was not the murderous, hateful anti-Semitisme of Goebbels and Hitler, but is was bad enough. It was not typical for the Flemish movement either. That low-level anti-Semitism was omnipresent. In France it was even worse. All political parties in Belgium were more or less infected. Even the royal family, even the socialists, even many of the resistance movements who fought the German occupation. They were no Eichmans, but they didn’t like the Jews.
We are not glorifying the VNV or the Verdinaso. But we can’t deny history. They were our historical ancestors. Not our fathers, but still our grandfathers. That doesn’t mean we will repeat their mistakes. When the Germans invaded Belgium in May 1940, the Verdinaso leadership asked all party members to volunteer in the Belgium army, and to fight the invaders tooth and nail. Those men are our political ancestors too. Yes, it’s true the VNV leadership collaborated with the Germans. But it’s also true the Verdinaso leadership didn’t. The first truth is often used to discredit us. The second truth is almost forgotten. We can’t change the past. We can’t deny the dark spots in our history. But we are not prisoners of that history. This bitter experience has been a sobering lesson. We will never ever again believe the false promises of totalitarism. One could only wish the left-wingers had learned that lesson too.
C. Swede- yes, I wondered why someone was using a Walloon collaborator as proof of a Flemish party's Nazi ties.
Ed: "C. Swede- yes, I wondered why someone was using a Walloon collaborator as proof of a Flemish party's Nazi ties."
Sigh... Yes... And suddenly Bert Eriksson was a founder of VB too.. I'm tired of this endless stream of "evidence" to debunk. There's no end to it.
But well, there are things I do not like of the past of VB. Mainly Karel Dillen is too extreme for my taste. Not as bad as Le Pen, but still. About Dillen Dewinter is definitely extenuating. Otherwise his description is a much better start to understanding VB's roots. There are bits and pieces in Sonja's description that are true, but she's too busy in twisting things to paint VB all in black that her texts get very confusing, to say the least.
She starts with connecting VB to something, e.g. a meeting with NPD, then she continues to write at length about that something as a way to blacken VB. Hardly convincing.
This time she links VB to VNV and the Flemish Nazi party by saying that VB had exactly the same ideological point of view as them. Not true of course. Then she continues to write how their slogan was “Antwerp is ours. Jews out”. And while the "their" could only be referring to the Flemish Nazi party, she's careful to give the impression as if VB said it. But when she comes to "they also helped to deport more than 25.000 Jews to Auschwitz", this starts looking ridiculous.
>I'm tired of this endless stream of "evidence" to debunk. There's no end to it.
I hear you. I'm sick of being subjected to the arrogance of the people who keep going on and on about this. It's really bad when they discover some 63 year microfiche picture that shows some guy's landlord tax accountant was in the same carriage as some guy who might have been the brother of a NAZI if he hadn't had been still born.
Steve Golay--
Like many on your side of the argument, you hoist yourself by your own petard.
You are peevish because of your imagined rejection of your black descendants (bet I have more than you do) -- a rejection that hasn't even happened.
You complain about *them* putting their own first, but that is the very thing you do yourself by feeling protective of your grandchildren at the thought -- the wholly imaginary thought -- of the ultimate rejection of your kin.
So what kind of circular argument is this, fella?
Do you have the right to feel protective of your people, and do you refuse that right to others who want to protect their children and grandchildren?
I'm not sure where the justice is in your statement. Or if there is any.
Logic? Nope...You get an A for strong feelings though.
cadgbd, please tell me you're only kidding.
I am a Christian who supports Israel, and who respects Judaism.
I am not a Roman Catholic, however; it bothers me when people think that Catholicism is the same as Christianity, because they're not the same.*
I am completely against the usual anti-Semitic tactic of (well, I'm against anything anti-Semitic) insisting that Jews (sometimes referred to as "Zionists") are in some grand conspiracy plot to take over the world.
I am also repulsed by your paranoid fantasy that Roman Catholics are also conspirators trying to take over the world.
Maybe you're just a troll, and people should disregard your post altogther.
------
*I don't consider Roman Catholicism to be Christian, because on the offical level, they reject the true Gospel (which is that salvation is by faith alone) and instead teach a false message that salvation is by faith and works and the Roman Catholic sacraments.
Catholics do not reject the Gospel, but I guess that is the best one can expect from one who gets their theology from Chick Comic Books.
Salavation is from Grace, but a manifestation of Faith is doing what the Lord wills, and following the example of Christ.
I don't suppose the Gospel passage about "when were you naked, and we clothed you, when were you hungry, and we gave you food, when were you in prison, and we visited you" thing rings a bell. (think 'Matthew').
I have been told that Bill Clinton's brand of Christianity, Southern Baptist, requires he simply announce he accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, and he need not do anything more. So I am to believe Bill Clinton is a Christian, but I am not?
Might also check 1st Corinthians 13 about faith without love.
Frank Hilliard
There is an interesting solution to the cultural identity debate in Canada, although no one is using it. Before Multiculturalism became the norm, Canada was considered bi-cultural (English and French) and indeed there was a commission to look into this. The recommendation of the B&B commission was to make French an official language along with English. Shortly afterwards, this morphed into multiculturalism.
The solution for anti-multiculturalists in Canada is thus obvious; all we have to do is to say we support bi-culturalism, not multiculturalism. I even have a little slogan that might be used (courtesy of Google Language Tools:
Biculturalisme n'est pas le racisme!
I would greatly love to hear from Other Canadians who think this idea might work.
Even though I think Canada was by enlarge a uni-lingual country with a french speaking province and Trudeau crammed this multi-cultural idiocy down our throats by enshrining it in the charter and constitution. I would settle for going back to a bi-cultural, bi-lingual society and getting rid of all this other nonsense.
Canadian Infidel said...
Even though I think Canada was by and large a unilingual country with a French speaking province and Trudeau crammed this multi-cultural idiocy down our throats by enshrining it in the charter and constitution. I would settle for going back to a bi-cultural, bi-lingual society and getting rid of all this other nonsense.
I think most Canadians would as well. What we need to do is to start sticking bi-cultural stickers on our cars, to start reinforcing the French-English heritage, including Christmas, and to urge immigrants to conform to one of the two official cultures.
Frankly, if it wasn't for the French, we'd never have this option because standing up for ANY culture is now Politically Incorrect. However, there it is in our recent past, a wonderful asset to use in the coming cultural wars.
You should come over to the 910 Group forum at Vigilantfreedom.org to discuss.
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