As a follow-up to his
earlier translation, our Russian correspondent Russkiy sends this overview of Arab opinion, based on his analysis of Arabic-language reader comments at the BBC website:
I have been reading comments at BBC Arabic for a while and the picture is very clear. The views of the Arabs based on subjects that come up can be divided into:
| 1. | | Concerns about standards of living |
| 2. | | Personal security |
| 3. | | Feeling of oppression, etc. on one hand, and social issues such as female identity, role of religion in politics, and Israel, on the other |
If we just concentrate on #1 and #2, than one can imagine that the Arab street overwhelmingly, really really wants democracy, and that West is the one imposing the dictators on them. So the liberals that may read or hear about such views would self-flagellate over the Western world’s hand in the oppression of Arabs by their leaders.
If we read into #3, then it is clear that overwhelmingly:
- The Arabs believe that the role of a woman as it is right now in Islam and the Middle East is just fine;
- That polygamy would be great to solve many social problems;
- That Islamic banking, if used, would have prevented economic crises;
- That Israel according to Shia is behind the Sunnis, and according to Sunnis behind Shia (in fact, most attribute Al Qaeda to America and Israel);
- That Christian minority in Egypt are treated just fine;
- That Europeans unjustly hate Muslims; and
- That Muslims are actually much better than Christians because they recognise Jesus as one of the prophets.
I would also add that if Arab countries were ruled democratically, then there would be no state of Israel according to opinions of majority of commenters.
Maybe 10% of commenters state alternative views to the above described, and within this number 10% are Christian Arabs, so the actual numbers of Muslim Arabs who have divergent views to those above would be less than 5%.
27 comments:
Exactly. That's why Western governments have usually supported various authoritarian regimes. They know that democratic elections would lead to Islamization and governments that are instrinically hostile to the West. The Arab masses are not comparable to Eastern Europeans under Communist domination.
Obama probably secretly told Mubarak to hang on as long as possible until the US can develop a coherent policy,as if it would make any difference.
You can't have both democracy and Islam and expect it to work. Democracy is based on post-reformation Christian foundations of free will, self responsibility, the view that our understanding is something that evolves/improves over time, individual conscience, self discipline, a certain "work ethic" (and more that I haven't thought of in this moment). None of those stances listed are foundation stones in Islamic thinking. You cannot have "democracy" when you don't have free will or an individual conscience.
You can't have both democracy and Islam and expect it to work. Democracy is based on post-reformation Christian foundations of free will, self responsibility, the view that our understanding is something that evolves/improves over time, individual conscience, self discipline, a certain "work ethic" etc. None of which are foundation stones in Islamic thinking. You cannot have "democracy" when you don't have free will or an individual conscience.
I want to hear President Obama make a statement about the Muslim Brotherhood.
One might predict that our President will be asked under oath at some point whether he met with any Muslim Brotherhood members when he went to Cairo in 2009.
I dont know why everyone is all bug eyed.
Once democracy is established, either...
A.) Liberal tendencies will flourish, even in an imperfect system
or
B.) Islam will be exposed, via the auspices of Muslim majorities participating in democracy. (And what that means for Europe)
Obviously the Autocratic regimes werent a successful strategy of putting the lid on Islam.
Bring it on, I say.
One thing that Democracy does bring is the possibility for Total War, if the countries are turn into nightmarish beligerents.
This is progress.
EscapeVelocity,
We're all "bug-eyed" because we are in no hurry to bring on Armageddon.
I, for one, am in no hurry to give the Islamists any advantage at all.
My own opinion is that the current Egyptian situation is not propelled by Islamic fanatics but the fanatics are in the wings waiting for their chance to stage a putsch (the danger in all revolutions).
Michael Farris - Feb.1, 2011 Glenn Beck's program agrees (full video online)
Beck really does a nice job of tying many of the links together.
*******
Christine Brim at BigPeace, ‘Direct Access’ Stimulus Grants for the Muslim Brotherhood
'Obama met Muslim Brotherhood members in U.S.'in'09
Underground Uprising in Egypt: Obama's acitivist friends Bill Ayers, Bernandine Dohrn, and Code Pink had their fingerprints all over the Egypt uprising, including involvement with the terror group 'The Muslim Brotherhood'
Flashback 2009: Muslim Brotherhood Members to Attend Obama's Cairo Speech
White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Monday that it is "not for me or our government to determine" whether Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak should leave office amid massive protests against his rule. vs.
New Obama Administration Muslim Appointee Echoes Muslim Brotherhood Positions
vs.
WH: No US contact with Muslim Brotherhood
Obama Administration Lifts US Ban on Muslim Brotherhood Leader
recall: Obama's reading preference: "Post American World"
Nexus between Barack Obama and the Muslim Brotherhood in the United States
Insist the LA Times release the suppressed tape of the 2003 dinner where Obama honored PLO advisor Khalidi.
via (IBA)
I tend to agree with 1389 on Escape Velocity's suggestion.
I wouldn't mind "bringing it on" if the West were actually fully awake about Islam; but "bringing it on" while the West is groggily, pleasantly hitting the snooze-alarm over and over again is not a good idea.
On the other hand, insofar as the West's wake-up call may only happen at the massively rude prompting of Muslim behaviors (including more terror attacks and more prevalent demonstrations (literally and figuratively) of the outrageously anti-liberal beliefs they hold); and insofar as we may not be able to control the genie out of the bottle, we may have little choice.
"I wouldn't mind "bringing it on" if the West were actually fully awake about Islam; but "bringing it on" while the West is groggily, pleasantly hitting the snooze-alarm over and over again is not a good idea."
This is the wake up call, Hesperado.
We get to see what Muslims think a good democracy created out of wholecloth and majority Muslim populations look like.
Democracy or not, Egypt is a failed state.
But I agree with EscapeVelocity, "democracy" is good for Egypt. After acquiring the power, Islam will reveal it's grotesque nature and it will bring the entire farce to a sudden death: cause the islamists will have to prove that they can actually govern efficiently while they will no longer be able to convincingly blame the West. In the end, they will fail with style and discredit their ideology.
The bad part is that it will cost human lives, a lot of time and a huge waste of money. But if the prediction is correct, the entire "islamisation" process of the West will end as well. So, let them have democracy. Sooner, the better.
the islamists will have to prove that they can actually govern efficiently while they will no longer be able to convincingly blame the West.
I'm not so sure. The Islamists will continue to blame the West for their failures even when the last Westerner and the last dollar are withdrawn from Egypt. Look at Iran: more than 30 years living in an isolated Islamic fortress and they still use the West as a scapegoat for everything.
And of course, the West will continue to listen to them and blame itself, in spite of any logic.
This is a wake up call.
Don't be so sure the Moslem Brotherhood isn't neck deep in creating the riots, there are also protests in Jordan and Oman as well as rumblings in Saudi. And the Moslem Brotherhood has endorsed ElBaradi (sp) as the next president, even though he is suppose to be the man the "secular" parties want. Sounds like a stealth jihadists has been chosen.
EscapeVelocity: One thing that Democracy does bring is the possibility for Total War, if the countries are turn into nightmarish beligerents.
The importance of this observation is one that is hard to overstate.
EscapeVelocity, please email the Baron and request that your message be forwarded to me.
I really think your idea re: Bush II Doctrine's logical extension needs in-depth examination and discussion here at GoV.
While I tend to agree that the West is relatively unprepared to confront Islam in a meaningful manner, only a genuine "hawk" American president will provide any relief from that situation. Anything less will see the current status quo extended ad nauseum until something far worse than the 9-11 atrocity is brought about.
Clearly, the Democratic election of Hamas was insufficient to persuade much of this world about just how supportive of terrorism many Muslims are.
That being the case, there may be no better or more opportune way of having Islam signal the entire globe of its malign intent than having nation after Muslim majority nation inscribe shari'a law and all of the jihadist rubbish conjoined to it into their respective constitutions for all to see.
Such repeated declarations of war upon the Western world constitute one of the last hopes for a Big Wake Up Call™ to get through in America and Europe. Short of terrorist nuclear attacks, I can see few other meaningful declarations which Islam could deliver in such an unadorned fashion.
Hesperado: On the other hand, insofar as the West's wake-up call may only happen at the massively rude prompting of Muslim behaviors (including more terror attacks and more prevalent demonstrations (literally and figuratively) of the outrageously anti-liberal beliefs they hold); and insofar as we may not be able to control the genie out of the bottle, we may have little choice.
The Islamic djinn (genie) is largely out of the bottle already. At least with respect to how Liberals have hidden the cork from those who might act in a timely manner.
I continue to hope that, with all dots properly connected, the 9-11 atrocity might finally deliver its full message. Clearly, with the appalling number of "truthers" out there, any such hope is rapidly diminishing. However, far better that hindsight break this propaganda stalemate than something far in excess of the 9-11 atrocity.
So long as the imbecilic "Tiny Minority" meme persists, there is little hope of persuading the fence-sitters, much less the great Liberal unwashed, of Islam's malignance. Only having an indisputable number of Muslim majority nations implement shari'a law in an identically similar and brutal manner will have any chance of waking up the deluded or undecided.
It has come to this.
Far better that Islam is lifting its skirts for all to see than busy thrusting its callused hand up ours. Those are the choices and, while neither is very appealing, any chance of ending the charade that Islam is the religion of peace can only be welcomed whole heartedly.
EscapeVelocity: We get to see what Muslims think a good democracy created out of wholecloth and majority Muslim populations look like.
Like I said, better that they are carrying out this vivid demonstration of what to expect on their own turf than enacting it on ours. This is Islam's EXHIBIT A and it promises to provide some difficult to ignore evidence of just how twisted the Muslim mind continues to be.
The Democratic election of Hamas was sufficient grounds to bind Islam over for trial. Now it is time to present the real evidence and parade it before the court of world opinion.
Start figuring out how best to make a lot of hay out of this golden opportunity. There may be very few others to come, ever again.
"Like I said, better that they are carrying out this vivid demonstration of what to expect on their own turf than enacting it on ours. "
Yes, the Islamic Reformation should be fought in Muslim lands, not in the West. Importing Islam and fighting it here in our cities and towns, and allowing them to pollute and corrupt our institutions and use them against us is insanity.
Take the war to the enemy. The best defense is a good offense.
My friends and relatives maintain the following views:
1. The American Muslims that I "know" are too nice to do "that" to us. Sharia Law is cultural rather than religious. Any evil actions implemented by Sharia Law (stonings, amputations, etc.) are merely the result of backward and poor cultures. (See no evil.)
2. It's too depressing. I want to be happy. (Hear no evil.)
1. STOP talking - and emailing me - about it. (Speak no evil.)
No amount of turmoil generated by Muslim democracies will convince my friends and family that we are at risk over here. Even a nuclear attack on American soil would have the people that I know attributing the attack to Third World poverty instead of Islamic Sharia Law and violent jihad.
Despite knowing that I read about the topic for hours a day, no one that I know EVER asks me about the state of the world vis a vis Islam.
At most, people say, "That's YOUR hobby." - as if world events are irrelevant to them in any way....
As Porky the Pig says, "That's all folks...."
*Sigh.......*
Too bad about the Coptic Christians.
They are gonna get hit HARD when the crazy-ass Musulmen take over.
Yep. That's the one thing I feel sad about. The Coptics.
All the talk about democracy is nothing but pretense.
The people who know this best are the Copts. They understand that Islam is a mockery of every decent thing in the world, and a debasement of humanity and the human experience.
Above all, it is a debasement of the individual.
Egghead's comment above is a neat summary description of what I have called "the Problem of the Problem" (i.e., the problem of the West's continuing myopia to the primary problem, Islam).
And that problem one gets a good glimpse at in Egghead's comment is not a problem machinated by dastardly Macchiavellian Elites and/or Leftists. The reason it is a problem of such magnitude throughout the West is precisely because it is ordinary, pleasant, relatively decent and intelligent people on all parts of the political spectrum (including that largest swath, the comfortably apolitical) who sincerely swallow, digest, and regurgitate it.
The Hesperado
Policy of containment, repatriation of Muslims in the West, and the acceptance of non Muslim refugees from Muslim countries.
And a new Cold War with Islam.
That is the strategy.
Raymond Ibrahim said
Rather than naively assume that this revolution will lead to a democratic Egypt (and so the U.S should stand by), or cynically assume that this is simply an Islamist revolt that needs to be crushed (by supporting Mubarak and tyranny), the U.S. should not support the Mubarak regime, but rather do whatever needs doing to see that the revolt, in fact, leads to a secular and pluralistic society, which many Egyptians would welcome.
The secularists are there. Now is the time to support them. Without Western support, the Muslim Brotherhood will take over Egypt by default. And if that happens, the Middle East will rock like never before in the modern era.
Raymond Ibrahim is associate director of the Middle East Forum and author of The Al Qaeda Reader.
Hesperado: … including that largest swath, the comfortably apolitical…
Without wishing to be obtuse, permit me to suggest that this is The Problem of the Problem of the Problem™. That is, this “comfortably apolitical” nonsense. To be sure it exists but is it a morally justifiable position to hold?
I recall an old graffiti that used to adorn a wooden fence where I grew up:
TO LIVE IS TO TAKE SIDES.
Merely by the choices of what one does and does not do, a person takes sides. Even the supposedly “apolitical” do so. It is a matter of how even not making a decision still is a form of taking a “decision”.
It is astounding to see how many people voluntarily decide not to have an opinion. Egghead’s earlier comment circumscribes the character of such individuals. I can only liken people who intentionally avoid having to form an opinion on vital issues to those who do not know how to drive a stick shift automobile.
People have told me, “I own a car with an automatic transmission. Why should I bother learning to drive one with a manual shift?”
The answer is quite simple;
What if you are in a life or death situation − such as a forest fire or crime scene − where the only means of escape is a manual transmission car? Are you going to render your life forfeit for the sake of avoiding half an hour’s driving lessons? It is much the same with learning how to fire a gun or handle a sharp knife.
Yet, for some reason, people see absolutely nothing wrong with allowing themselves to saunter through life with totally unformed ideas and a completely unresolved perception of reality.
Rest assured of one thing; an existential threat such as Islam will snap such minds into focus. To quote Winston Churchill:
There's nothing in the world quite so exhilarating as being shot at and missed.
The existential threat of Islam shall, willingly or not, bring such dull minds into rather sharp focus but it may just as often happen while standing before the chopping block.
The “comfortably apolitical” need to be made very uncomfortable and damn soon. Unfortunately, there is a very large and, for now, tepid pool of mutual non-opinion that they can swim in along with their fellow undecided travelers. Unbeknownst to them, they are nothing but frogs in a gradually heating pot of their own making.
There is a portion of blame that should be meted out to the mass media because of how they literally encourage such indecision by pre-digesting and removing the grit of conflicting information that might abrade the delicate senses of these lukewarm mentalities.
However, in the long run, just as with the stick shift, gun and knife, we all owe it to ourselves to become versed in that which assures our survival. That so many thrust away from themselves the tools of political awareness and moral decisiveness bodes particularly ill for the survival of Western culture. It is these cocoons that must be unraveled at the earliest opportunity.
The bulk conversion of MME (Muslim Middle East) nations over to institutionalized beheadings, crane hangings, amputations, rape rooms, abject gender apartheid, legally sanctioned child abuse, curbside beatings and the usual retinue of mayhem that follows in Islam’s footsteps may be one of the only things that will serve to jolt the West’s “comfortably apolitical” out of their intellectual torpor.
Zenster,
"Without wishing to be obtuse, permit me to suggest that this is The Problem of the Problem of the Problem™."
I'll see you, and raise you:
The problem: the problem of the problem, the problem of the problem of the problem—and the problem of the problem of the problem of the problem
Otherwise, I more or less agree with you about the political cost of apathy; on the other hand, I'm not so sure it's a bad thing that many people are not influencing politics.
Hesperado: Otherwise, I more or less agree with you about the political cost of apathy; on the other hand, I'm not so sure it's a bad thing that many people are not influencing politics.
Welcome to Democracy's simultaneous virtue and bane. Smart electorates can install brilliant leaders in office. Moron electorates can use political beauty contests to elevate their Obamas.
An educated electorate will always be the linch pin of fully functional democracy.
As an aside, this entire series of posts should be accepted as proof of how Islam is monolithic in nature. Ummah, doctrine, legal code and the whole meghilla.
Jihad is jihad is jihad. There is only one flavor and it is spelled:
D E A T H … T O … A L L … O T H E R … C U L T U R E S
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