Thursday, December 04, 2008

Russia Insists on Reciprocity

Reciprocity.

Many people who share the Islamophobic persuasion have suggested the idea: for every mosque built in the West, one church should be built in Mecca, or Medina, or Cairo, or Islamabad, or Tehran.

Fair is fair.

This has remained a mere fantasy for those of us who live in dhimmified countries — which includes most of Europe, the United States, Canada, and Australia. None of our leaders would have the temerity to ask for such a thing.

But Russia — that’s another matter. According to The Washington Times:

A Russian Church for a Saudi Mosque?

This delightful story just came in thanks to getreligion.org: The Saudis have recently asked permission to build a mosque in Moscow, a city where there are only four mosques and 2 million Muslims. The Russians, however, are saying they want, in return, an Orthodox church in Saudi Arabia.

As we all know, the Saudis have a habit of constructing mosques in dozens of world capitals while forbidding houses of worship for any religion whatsoever outside its Wahabist brand of Islam. They’ve gotten some bad PR locally for some of the hate language in textbooks at the Saudi Academy in northern Virginia. Not only are hapless Christians terrorized and jailed for daring to hold private prayer services in Saudi Arabia, but God help them should they try to convert someone to their religion. And that’s for a fellow People of the Book: One can only guess at what the treatment of Buddhists and Hindus must be like.

Wouldn’t it be so ironic if the Russians were the first Christian body to win acceptance of the right to build a church in, say, Riyadh? (Some of the Russians are calling for a church in Mecca, but the chances of any other religion getting a foothold within walking distance of the world center of Islam is less than zero.) Of course we all know the Saudis aren’t about ready to let Bibles or other religious literature, let alone a church, anywhere near their homeland, but all the same, it’s amusing to see the Russians give the Saudis a taste of their own medicine.

Indeed it is.

The source for the WashTimes article was Window on Eurasia. Here’s more detail:
- - - - - - - - -
Vienna, November 26 — The king of Saudi Arabia has announced that he is ready to support the construction of a mosque and Islamic cultural center in Moscow, a city with only four mosques for its more than two million Muslims. In response and probably to block this, Orthodox Christians in Russia have called for opening a church in Saudi Arabia.

These two proposals have sparked an often intriguing discussion by Russia’s Muslims and Christians over the role religion plays in defining the two societies and about the role of law in regulating that, a discussion that could either enrich or complicate the Kremlin’s relations with Muslims inside Russia and Muslim states abroad it is currently trying to court.

Last Thursday, Rushan Abbyasov, the head of the international department of the Union of Muftis of Russia (SMR) announced that the Saudi king had agreed to finance the construction of a mosque and a cultural center in Moscow “if the Russian authorities will offer a site” appropriate for them (www.interfax-religion.ru/islam/?act=news&div=27412).

[…]

Given that Moscow has only four mosques — the same number it had at the end of Soviet times — but a Muslim population that may number as many as 2.5 million, Muslims in the Russian Federation were delighted by the offer and the attention from abroad it suggests. But many non-Muslim Russians were horrified that another mosque might be opened in their capital.

After the Saudi offer was reported, three Russian Orthodox groups — the Moscow section of the Union of Orthodox Citizens, the Radonezh Society, and the Byzantine Club — released an open letter to Saudi King Abdullah suggesting that there should be another mosque in Moscow only after a Russian Orthodox church was opened in Mecca.

Their appeal noted that “Saudi Arabia is building mosques in dozens of Christian countries” and then asked whether it would not be only just if permission were given to Christians to build a church within its borders for Christians living there, something Riyadh has been reluctant to permit (www.interfax-religion.ru/islam/?act=documents&div=835).

And in support of their argument, the three groups cite the comment of Jean-Louis Cardinal Toran, the head of the Papal Council on Inter-religious Dialogue that “if Muslims consider it correct to have a large and beautiful mosque in Rome, then it is equally correct for Christians to have a church in Riyadh.”

The Orthodox groups also argued that it would be “very important” to lift the restrictions now in force against Christians visiting the Holy cities of Mecca and Medina,” to all visitors to Saudi Arabia to wear crosses, and to create special courses about Christianity in general and Russian Orthodoxy in particular.

Moreover, they suggested that if the Saudis want to begin broadcasting their television programs to the Russian Federation and its Muslims, then “it would be just” to offer “Your subjects the opportunity to watch Russian Orthodox channels and thus to learn that “Christians don’t believe in three gods, don’t distort the Bible and don’t pray to idols.”

Individual Russian commentators were more outspoken about the Saudi proposal. Arkady Maler, who writes frequently on cultural issues, said that the king’s offer should be rejected not only because Christians can’t build churches in the kingdom but also because Saudi Arabia is the homeland of Wahhabism, which some Russian jurisdictions have declared illegal.

Consequently, he said, no more mosques should be built, especially by the Saudis, in the Russian capital until there are churches in Saudi Arabia, because there is no reason to build another mosque in Moscow which at most would serve only “a few thousand people,” far fewer than the number of Christians in Saudi Arabia (www.rus-obr.ru/opinions/1267).

Dmitry Volodikhin, a Russian nationalist fantasy writer, added an additional reason for opposing the construction of a Muslim center in Moscow: The Russian capital, he said, needs to restore more Russian churches for Orthodox Christians before it thinks about building new mosques for Muslims (www.interfax-religion.ru/islam/?act=news&div=27460).

[…]

What makes this interesting is that Ashirov, whose comments have often put him at odds with both other Muslim leaders in Russia and with the Kremlin, here adopts a position that the Russian government likely would be very comfortable with, while the Russian Orthodox nationalists are staking out one that could cause trouble for Moscow at home and abroad.

So the Russian nationalists, who take their Orthodoxy seriously, are more interested than their own government in pushing the Saudis into a corner.

This is a story that’s worth following. The Saudis will never give in, of course, but it’s the thought that counts.

Don’t you wish that the political leaders of the West — not to mention the Church of Rome and the major Protestant denominations — could show half the spine that these guys have?


For those who are interested, these are the original Russian-language references used in the above article:


Hat tips: Conservative Swede and Islam in Action.

21 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is one of the reasons why I love Russia. They may have faults, but sometimes they strongly stand up to idiots (i.e. this case and Chechnya), which I'd like to see more leaders in the West do.

Of course, sometimes they don't (i.e. Russia's relations with Iran) and that is quite vexing to me.

Anonymous said...

Forgot to mention: I am predicting a copious amount of comments for this thread, considering that it mentioned the Russian Federation (and how amusing is it that that is their real name--Российская Федерация in Russian).

Unknown said...

The whole church-for-a-mosque line of thinking annoys me immensely. I'm against mosques being built in the West full stop and a sham church being built in the middle of the desert halfway across the world won't impress me even a tiny bit.

Does anyone really care if Arab Muslims allow Christian churches in their countries? I don't. Meanwhile, the demolishing of several hundred mosques in the West is long, long overdue. I hope the Russians tell the Saudis to flip off instead of engaging in this pointless "reciprocity" game.

Armance said...

I am curious about the further developments of the story. From what I understand, it's not the representatives of the Russian state or government, not even the leaders of the Russian Orthodox Church itself who have questioned the Saudi initiative, but some Orthodox-nationalist groups, I don't know if really influential or just marginal in the Russian public life. It is worth following the reaction of the Russian officials to see if they really have some spine or they are just another bunch of Christian "turn the other cheek" dhimmies.

Anyway, I liked particularly this part of the story:

but also because Saudi Arabia is the homeland of Wahhabism, which some Russian jurisdictions have declared illegal.

And I disliked this one - a proof that Russian Muslims display fearlessly the same kind of chutzpah like those in the West:

but Nafigulla Ashirov, the outspoken head of the Muslim Spiritual Directorate (MSD) of the Asiatic Portion of Russia, was quite willing to offer his comments about this dispute to Russian news agencies.
Ashirov said that the laws of each country should determine what the followers of each faith can do: if it is legal as it is for Muslims to build mosques in Russia, that is fine; and if it is not legal and it isn’t for Christians in Saudi Arabia to open churches there, then that must be respected as well.


Let's see what is the next move of both parties involved. I would be very disappointed if the Russian officials surrender to the Muslim demands.

Dymphna said...

Mr islam o' phobe:

I am beginning to feel I'm following you around in the comments sections, but we obviously appear to have quite differing perspectives.

You say:

The whole church-for-a-mosque line of thinking annoys me immensely. I'm against mosques being built in the West full stop and a sham church being built in the middle of the desert halfway across the world won't impress me even a tiny bit.

To me the story was amusing. The Islamists have such chutzpah, planting their spoor in the form of mosques all over the place. The idea that another country would finally tell Saudi Arabia to get real is funny.

You can be phobic and still laugh at this idea.

Ain't gonna be no church in Saudia Arabia no time. Not a chance.And it doesn't matter

Good on the Russians. More tit for tat would certainly level the playing field, thereby driving the multicultis off their game.

Come on, laugh. Let's congratulate whichever Russian is responsible for showing how it's done -- with cojones!

Ah, only the Russians...

Anonymous said...

Even if the Saudis approve the church, so what? Who is going to build it? Who is going to pay for defending it, the workforce, and the congregants from local terrorists? Once it gets damaged, will the Russians ignore Saudi law prohibiting its repair?

Czechmade said...

Ethiopia declared something similar recently when a mosque was proposed
in its Christian heartland (Ethiopia has a threatening (still) muslim minority).

The fact missing is how many Orthodox Christians work in SA. The bargain chip might be a little church in the probably huge Russian embassy compound, which is technically not SA land.

Zenster said...

As Natalie obliquely touched upon, Putin's mafia is exhibiting all the symptoms of schizophrenia. Even as they ostensibly poke a thumb in Islam's eye with demands of reciprocity, they simultaneously embolden terrorist regimes by selling them advanced weapons systems. One cannot be both the good cop and bad cop all at once.

Until Putin backs off of supporting terrorist regimes, all other ballyhoo, is just window dresing. Of course it will be nice to see Saudi Arabia bluster and fulminate over such Infidel audacity but at day's end facilitating Islamic supremacy cancels out such perfuntory gestures.

Whiskey said...

One has to understand history here.

Saudi Arabia was the chief financier of jihad against the USSR in Afghanistan and target #1 of the USSR in the Gulf during the Cold War. For their part the Saudis hated the USSR and tried their best to kick them out of the region, particularly with respect to Saddam.

The Russians have always had "allies" of dubious nature, namely Iran (they occupied Northern Iran during WWII when Reza Khan went pro-Nazi) or elements within it, Iraq, Syria, and Egypt off and. One constant: Saudi Arabia has been the enemy.

On a practical note, Saudi and Russia compete on the world oil market. This is the real deal here -- particularly with the falling oil prices below $50 a barrel. This is a gratifying and public poke in the eye by Putin towards a regime he likely hates and has good reason to discourage in meddling in Moscow.

I predict there is ZERO chance of new Mosques opening up in Russia, because it would be an easy way to sponsor Saudi-oriented terrorism and thus the Putin government which has presided over situations where domestic critics fall out of windows, get shot in elevators, or drink Polonium 210 laced tea, will never allow anything in Russia it does not directly control.

It certainly will not allow the House of Saud to open up Mosques.

Russia's game is simple: keep it's nominal allies who are plugged into Jihad happy (Iran, Syria, a few other groups) and keep Sunni groups at a distance (this means the House of Saud) and encourage "you and him fight" like the plot of the last season of "24."

Czechmade said...

Zenster says:

"One cannot be both the good cop and bad cop all at once".

This is the classical KGB interrogation technique: You get always two cops. So your problem is solved. Even if you know the trick, after 8 hours interrogation you start getting closer to the "nicer" KGB guy.

They have a supply of somewhat Western looking smooth educated guys. The decision maker has however (for ex. at their embassy) no obvious higher position, so respecting the official power structure one has to approach always the somewhat insignificant guy. Bad luck if you try to convince someone like this in "top position".

Schizofrenia is a tool, not a mistake, deficiency or a "fault".

Evil regimes have their outright sympathy - it is a terrain they are familiar with. Some democracy makes them feel uncomfortable like bats exposed to the light. Unspeakable suffering you could observe on the face of Putin dressed in poncho in Chile with Bush patting his shoulder...loosing his isolated/dominant murky image.

Did you ever hear some human rights issue raised about desperate Iranians from Kremlin? Imagine their bordom and fear if they have to speak to different shifting political groups in Iran!

Afonso Henriques said...

"The Saudis have recently asked permission to build a mosque in Moscow, a city where there are only four mosques and 2 million Muslims."

"The king of Saudi Arabia has announced that he is ready to support the construction of a mosque and Islamic cultural center in Moscow, a city with only four mosques for its more than two million Muslims."

"Given that Moscow has only four mosques — the same number it had at the end of Soviet times — but a Muslim population that may number as many as 2.5 million"

Well, great and all that and we should all behave in that manner and such.

But,
CAN ANYONE PLEASE SHOW ME SOME DATA SAYING THAT MUSLIMS - OR ANY OTHER NON EAST SLAVIC ETHNIC MINORITIES COUNTED TOGEATHER - IN MOSCOW NUMBER MORE THAN TWO MILLION?

Because, two million whould be 1/8 of 16 million which is the population of Moscow (in reality, 16 million is already an over estimation). One eight would be half of one quarter which is 25%. So, it is implied that Moscow is more than 12% "ethnic" which I doubt. I believe that a Moscow around 15% or more "ethnic" would be an over-estimation.

According to the 2002 census, Moscow was 8% muslim. This, counting the four percent of the population which declined to state their ethnicity. Two Million or more just seems too much...

Thank you.

Afonso Henriques said...

"Does anyone really care if Arab Muslims allow Christian churches in their countries? I don't."

Me neither. Islamophobe I agree with you 100%.

Afonso Henriques said...

I think we shoud be more inclusive towards Russia. Studdy their History and learn that they have always been not very welcomed in Europe (Balts, Poles, Swedes, Germans, Britts, etc.) and smached in the East (Hunns (was there Russians back then? I think not), Mongols, Kazhars, all sort of Turks, Commies etc.).

So the position of Russia will always be "pragmatic". And I believe they are "very European", just poor also and used to be enslaved. We must never forget that Russia is on the frontline. It is not like Denmark or the United States who are secure. No, Russia has been on the frontline since ever, like Lebanon and Armenia and meanwhile they mannaged to continue more European. I am yet to hear about an Armenian Tolstoi... Russia's borders are nor really its borders. Its borders lye within and without and we will be discovering it soon.

I think Russia's assistance to Iran can be easily explained. They don't want another American/Saudi pitbull in the area. And, if Russians are not worried about a nuclear Iran (which they would never tolerate under normal (or other) circumstances) why should we be?

Why are you people afraid of Iran?

Zenster, what do you feel to be the bigger threat of a future nuclear Iran?

X said...

It's a standard muslim technique to inflate their own numbers in any given situation, rather like a puffer fish blowing itself up to immense size in order to scare away predators.

Czechmade said...

Afonso,

they might have very good cards in the region in the future - iniciating the end of the regime. But when the dudes did something like this?

So I will one day enjoy free Iran turning back to his evil ex-enabler.

In fact to a large extent EU behaves like Russia towards Iran. Amazing evil coming from us...

Free Iran would be motivated to deal with our muslims. They have Palestinians doing the dirty jobs for mullahs - since not many Iranians have the stomach to do all the unpublished evil in prisons or elsewhere. Imagine Iranian and Israeli contractors interrogating our muslims using well Arabic or Azeri/Turkish!

Czechmade said...

A German source: Politically incorrect
about an Aramaic monastery under threat in Turkey: MOR GABRIEL

http://www.pi-news.net/2008/12/rettet-das-aramaeische-kloster-mor-gabriel/

Afonso Henriques said...

Epá... to all of you:

It seems that there is another European (Western?) country where religious is taken serious but America.

You all have probabily already heard of the death of Alexis II, the Patriarch of Moscow. Some excerpts from the Portuguese journalist's blog who spent the third third of the Cold War in Russia:

"The police of Moscow reforced the security near the Orthodox temples in the Russian capital where inumerous Orthodox believers arrived, principally close to the Temple of Christ The Saviour, where the funerary ceremonies will take place, and the Monestery of Donskoi, where Alexis II shall be burried.
(...)
“Alexis II will enter the History of the Church as the "Builder Patriarch" (why does this not sound English to me?). He recieved the Church almost completely destroyed in the beginning of the 90s. Today, we see the Church AS THE MOST POWERFULL SOCIAL ORGANISATION OF RUSSIA, and as certainly the more dynamic ”, said to the Lusa Agency the director of the Centre of Strategic Studies of Religion and Modern Politics, Maksim Chevtchenko."

And for those who simply cannot see Russia with benevolent eyes, the man also had this to state:

"It was precisely the KGB that, in the mid of the 70s, started the project 'Orthodoxy to replace Communism'”, said the priest in declarations to the Lusa agency.
Alexis II was many times acused of being an informer of the Russian Secret Services, the KGB, an acusation that he always denied."

Joanne said...

The Russian leadership certainly are not the friends of the free world - not by a long shot.

By stating that a mosque can be built in Moscow, when a Christian Church can be built in Saudia Arabia is just like saying no, but proving a point to boot. I don't know why people in Russia have more hutspah than other Christian nations, but I'll take it from Christians originating from anywhere, quite frankly.

ɱØяñιηg$ʇðя ©™ said...

Personally I think we should go for ZERO TOLERANCE policy. Zero mosques and zero muslims in Europe and North America. That's the way I would like it. Bring forth all your bulldozers.

Profitsbeard said...

Why not: one mosque in the infidel world will be torn down every day that a church or temple or synagogue is NOT built in Saudi Arabia?

Let's up the tit for tat to a useful level.

Conservative Swede said...

Zenster,

...Putin's mafia is exhibiting all the symptoms of schizophrenia. Even as they ostensibly poke a thumb in Islam's eye with demands of reciprocity, they simultaneously embolden terrorist regimes by selling them advanced weapons systems.

Exactly how do you imagine that the Union of Orthodox Citizens is connected to Putin's "mafia" (as you call it)?