The fifth video in the series takes us back in time to 1997, five years before Pim Fortuyn was assassinated.
A historic debate between Pim Fortuyn and Marcel van Dam (PvdA, Socialists) occurred on the TV program “Lagerhuis” (“House of Commons”) in 1997. It followed the publication of the book Against the Islamization of our Culture by Fortuyn, who in this debate was openly called an ‘untermensch’: “You are an extremely inferior human being. Did you know that?”
Many thanks to our Flemish correspondent VH for the translation and to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:
A complete transcript of the video is below the jump.
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| 00:00 | 00:07 | We will talk about the Islamization of Dutch culture, at least, the question is whether this is the case. | ||
| 00:07 | 00:12 | In any event the sociologist Pim Fortuyn thinks so, and has written a little book about it. | ||
| 00:12 | 00:16 | You will debate with Marcel van Dam (PvdA, Socialist). | ||
| 00:16 | 00:24 | |||
| 00:24 | 00:30 | Mr. Fortuyn, would you like to explain Marcel van Dam why Islamization is a threat to our culture? | ||
| 00:30 | 00:34 | Yes, I have elaborated on that in my book with three points. | ||
| 00:34 | 00:38 | The first point is the separation of church and state. | ||
| 00:38 | 00:43 | In our cultures we took four centuries to accomplish that. | ||
| 00:43 | 00:47 | And that cost many a little torrent of blood. | ||
| 00:47 | 00:52 | Why is this so important? Because it safeguards the public domain… | ||
| 00:52 | 00:58 | … from direct interventions by ideologies, philosophies, churches. | ||
| 00:58 | 01:03 | We therefore have put the filter of parliamentary democracy in between. | ||
| 01:03 | 01:11 | There is freedom of expression connected with it, freedom of the press, and human rights. | ||
| 01:11 | 01:16 | What I see here, let me finish my argument, I note that in many Muslim countries… | ||
| 01:16 | 01:21 | …the relation between church and state is an extremely problematic one. | ||
| 01:21 | 01:26 | and that in many Muslim countries they absolutely have no interest in it. | ||
| 01:26 | 01:34 | But that little book does not say that the culture in these countries is threatened. | ||
| 01:34 | 01:39 | You say that Islamization threatens OUR culture. | ||
| 01:39 | 01:46 | And now you give me one example in which though, eh, Islam, in the Netherlands is… | ||
| 01:46 | 01:50 | …less than 3% of the population adheres that religion… | ||
| 01:50 | 01:54 | …it threatens the separation of church and state in Netherlands. | ||
| 01:54 | 01:59 | That I will explain to you. I’m not saying it’s happening at this moment… | ||
| 01:59 | 02:03 | …I very explicitly put that in an international perspective. | ||
| 02:03 | 02:10 | My problem is that we too have many of these in the lower classes. | ||
| 02:10 | 02:18 | We are thus, as it were, creating conditions for a fundamentalist threat… | ||
| 02:18 | 02:25 | …which we can handle, as long as the Islamic world does not pose a threat. | ||
| 02:25 | 02:34 | I am in a group of prominent scholars who reckon with that. I keep it close to home … | ||
| 02:34 | 02:43 | I know of not one prominent scholar who thinks Dutch culture is threatened by Islamization… | ||
| 02:43 | 02:48 | …and my major objection to your little book is… | ||
| 02:48 | 02:56 | …that you incite people to fear immigrants… | ||
| 02:56 | 02:59 | …while this fear is completely unfounded. | ||
| 02:59 | 03:04 | I find that totally outrageous because I do not claim that; first of all I call to… | ||
| 03:04 | 03:08 | No, you know what is outrageous, you know what is outrageous… | ||
| 03:08 | 03:14 | …that by many generalizations in this book, you identify those minority groups… | ||
| 03:14 | 03:20 | …with all kinds of ideas that maybe by people within that minority group… | ||
| 03:20 | 03:24 | …that a few of such people may walk around with, but that label… | ||
| 03:24 | 03:28 | …you then stick on the whole group. You talk about fundamentalism… | ||
| 03:28 | 03:34 | No, the first thing I do is look into my own heart. I say that we should become aware… | ||
| 03:34 | 03:38 | Then you must keep doing that for the rest of your life… | ||
| 03:38 | 03:42 | … of our own core values, that we should become aware of them, and that in discussions we… | ||
| 03:42 | 03:47 | …also with these groups, should start to transfer these core values. | ||
| 03:47 | 03:53 | Therefore I make a call to those people to fully participate in our culture. | ||
| 03:53 | 03:57 | If THAT is inciting to stigmatization I do not understand it. | ||
| 03:57 | 04:01 | Participate in our culture? You want to prescribe that. You want them to integrate… [“Absolutely!”] | ||
| 04:01 | 04:07 | …in our society [“Absolutely!”] by having them deprived of their own identity and culture [“No way!”] | ||
| 04:07 | 04:12 | For they must behave as YOU want [“No”] | ||
| 04:12 | 00:16 | That they look you in the eye, do not wear those long dresses… | ||
| 04:16 | 04:20 | …they neatly go into the pool like we do… | ||
| 04:20 | 04:25 | …that’s all in your little book, done that, as if, eh… | ||
| 04:25 | 04:31 | …as if the views of the SGP (Orthodox Christians) about women’s suffrage… | ||
| 04:31 | 04:39 | You are making a caricature of my book Mr. van Dam; I talk about core norms and values… | ||
| 04:39 | 04:44 | …and not all the frills, and of course I expand with concrete examples… | ||
| 04:44 | 04:48 | For sure, in a scandalous way. [“Well, prove that”] | ||
| 04:48 | 04:56 | For instance, you talk about Muslims treating their women badly, they beat their wives… | ||
| 04:56 | 05:00 | …and that it’s a core value in the Netherlands… | ||
| 05:00 | 05:04 | That is absolutely not in my book, what I do say is that in the peasant Islamic culture… | ||
| 05:04 | 05:09 | …women are oppressed; it is a patriarchal culture, in which the man is the authority… | ||
| 05:09 | 05:13 | …as we had in the 1950s | ||
| 05:13 | 05:21 | and I therefore say: Muslim women are also entitled to emancipation; they should have your support. | ||
| 05:21 | 05:25 | Certainly, certainly Muslim women have the right to emancipation… | ||
| 05:25 | 05:30 | …but by stating it the way you do, you pretend as if Muslim women living in the Netherlands… | ||
| 05:30 | 05:36 | …are regularly abused by their husbands, THAT is what you suggest in your little book. | ||
| 05:36 | 05:41 | That is not in it, and I would like you, because I do want you to take that into account… | ||
| 05:41 | 05:50 | …as occurred regularly in the working class in the Netherlands, because those relationships were authoritarian… | ||
| 05:50 | 05:55 | …that is what we have thank our women’s’ shelters for, it also happens there… | ||
| 05:55 | 06:00 | …an open culture, where men and women are brought up in equality… | ||
| 06:00 | 06:04 | …where boys and girls are socialized in equality… | ||
| 06:04 | 06:08 | …such wrongs will occur less. | ||
| 06:08 | 06:13 | You could have heard it on TV: a woman had an abortion because there was an emergency… | ||
| 06:13 | 06:18 | …third girl instead of a boy, and that doctor sees the man beat up his wife… | ||
| 06:18 | 06:24 | …for he refused it [a girl]. You can read that in the paper. | ||
| 06:24 | 00:28 | Yes, but I can also read well what is in your little book… | ||
| 06:28 | 06:34 | Obviously not, because you have not read my book. [“No?”] No, I notice. You read in the paper about it. | ||
| 06:34 | 06:38 | No sir, I did read your little book from the first to the last letter. | ||
| 06:38 | 06:42 | I don’t believe an inch of it. | ||
| 06:42 | 06:49 | That you can say, and moreover I also read around what you said, indeed… | ||
| 06:49 | 07:02 | …and when I read that in the paper yesterday you wrote such things as “one country, one people, one nation”… | ||
| 07:02 | 07:11 | …then you recall the atmosphere in which the NSB tried to get votes before the war. | ||
| 07:11 | 07:15 | You always work below the belt, six years ago [“Did you say that or not”]… | ||
| 07:15 | 07:19 | Did you say that or not? | ||
| 07:19 | 07:23 | …six years ago you set me on par with Eichmann. How dare you! | ||
| 07:23 | 07:28 | [“That is not true”] Absolutely! In an interview with Bibeb you called me it in one breath… | ||
| 07:28 | 07:34 | …and that was such a dirty and slippery text I legally could not do anything about, but that is the way you are. | ||
| 07:34 | 07:38 | But no, I did not say that, it is not true that I said that… | ||
| 07:38 | 07:42 | …and if it’s an interview six years ago we must be able to look it up. | ||
| 07:42 | 07:50 | Yes, I think so, you planned to write a novel and looked for an Eichmann of the 90s… | ||
| 07:50 | 07:57 | …and then you saw that Fortuyn on your TV, and thought: that man, he has the looks of Eichmann. [“You’re lying!”] | ||
| 07:57 | 08:01 | Desktop murderer, six million Jews. | ||
| 08:01 | 08:05 | You lie, and you are not only a liar, but you’re an instigator… | ||
| 08:05 | 08:09 | …an instigator… with which you want the Dutch people… | ||
| 08:09 | 08:13 | And you’re a populist and a below-the-belt worker. | ||
| 08:13 | 08:18 | Populist? Populist? [“Yes”] Do you know what I find so terrible? | ||
| 08:19 | 08:24 | That you exploit the potential fears of the Dutch people against immigrants… | ||
| 08:24 | 08:28 | Do you actually know what you are doing with this debate? | ||
| 08:28 | 08:33 | …you exploit them to sell those little books of yours, which have not a guilder’s worth of information. | ||
| 08:33 | 08:38 | Another accusation again. What I try in my book… | ||
| 08:38 | 08:43 | You are an extremely inferior human being. Did you know that? | ||
| 08:43 | 08:47 | I try to broaden the debate in my book, Mr. Van Dam… | ||
| 08:47 | 08:51 | Broaden debate? You are trying to incite people against each other. | ||
| 08:51 | 08:55 | …and fight that politically correct church of yours. | ||
| 08:55 | 08:59 | You try to incite people against each other. [“Prove that to me.”] | ||
| 08:59 | 09:03 | Why do you think Janmaat offers you a seat in Parliament? [“Do I need to offer accountability for that?”] | ||
| 09:03 | 09:07 | Yeah, you must offer accountability for that, yes. | ||
| [Five, four, three, two, one, stop!] | ||||
| 09:07 | 09:16 | |||
| 09:17 | 09:21 | You witness a program that puts the debate in the center, ladies and gentleman. That much is certain. |
10 comments:
I never liked Pim Fortuyn.
Yes, if someone moves to another country, he or she should be completely deprived of their culture and be forced to adopt the culture of the country they moved to. It's common sense, otherwise they should stay out in their home country.
The social cost should be suffered by the immigrant, not the home country and as someone who wants to emigrate from my own country, I'm willing to do it.
Afonso:
When I talked to him a few months before he died, Mr. Fortuyn told me he didn't think much of you, either.
@rebelliousvanilla
Yes, if someone moves to another country, he or she should be completely deprived of their culture
It's hard to judge your tone here so I'm not sure if you're just being ironic...??
Anyway, people have to flee their countries for lots of reasons. Homesickness can literally kill sometimes.
As for the new culture, think of the lack of exposure to other ways of thinking. Especially consider being deprived of all those wonderful cuisines!
The English are the basis for our laws and that is good. However, if we were restricted to the cuisine of our founders...ah, it doesn't bear thinking about. How dreary. Fortunately, Thos Jefferson agreed; from his travels abroad he brought back to us much information on delicious continental food.
Yes, the dominant culture should be in place, but it shouldn't be cemented in so hard that it's not resilient.
About a year ago I learned about a small town in US named Lindstrom (maybe they even spelled it with the dots) and I think it was in Minnesota. As the story goes, many scandinavians settled in Minnesota because the landscape and nature reminded them of their homeswhich they had left. I guess that countered the homesickness to some point at least. Well, having that said, now some 100 to 130 years later most if not all these immigrants has being assimilated to american culture in general. They all speak english now and through some old folks, they still know a few swedish words, but just a few. No-one really speaks the old language anymore. Also, a few traditions from the old country has survived to this very day. I know some famous folks has visited the old country, Kris Kristoferson and Mike Love being some of them. I also know that Uma Thurman has visited Trelleborg (not far away from Malmö btw) the hometown of her maternal grandmother. I also learned through Idmb that Kristanna Loken sometimes spells her surname with a slash through the o norwegian style. What does all this tells me? That these people are all american and rightly so but they are also proud of their heritage. Although some traditions has survived, they also celebrate Halloween, Thanksgiving and 4th of July. That's the way it is and should be. You pay respect both to the old country and the new. But seriously, is anybody here really thinking the mohammedans will assimilate like that? In a hundred years from now, they will still be violent, persecuting jihadist mahoundians. They will NEVER assimilate like all other folks from civilised parts of the world. Never!
That is the one comment I see over and over regarding why immigration is good - the FOOD!
Does the country need to be sold out to have interesting cusine?
With all the traveling people do can't they bring back the cooking technics without bringing the immigrants to cook it?
That same comment shows up over and over - But what about their great food!!!?
Really, if that is the only good thing, can't we learn to cook?
Fortuyn was all for Holland remaining a free, secular, liberal land.
Not for it to slowly decay and descend into yet another Islamic Crapistan.
For this, the craven Dutch enablers of the We-Want-To-Become-Another-Muslim-Crapistan bloc, filled with Netherlandish Leftoid anarcho-marxists and p.c./multiculti delsuionalists, painted Pim as Hitler without the hair.
And got him murdered by one of their spoonfed suckers.
A hero for Holland, which clearly didn't deserve him.
And may not deserve Geert Wilders, either.
To their looming downfall.
And eternal shame.
The argument that we need people from Crapistan to cook all the new food, then why don't we import americans to flip our burgers or japanese to make our sushi for us?
Profitsbeard - You are my favorite commentor. A sharp point on your keyboard.
Robin - I don't think we need to import cooks to enjoy foreign foods. That was toward Dymphna's comment that we would be deprived of 'wonderful cuisine' without immigrants. And towards all the others who constantly write that here and elsewhere.
Are you agreeing? It's hard to tell.
S-
Dank je wel, as the Dutch say (Thank you lots).
Speaking of inter-cultural cooking, here's my recipe for Krispy Koran Surprise:
Take one slightly read Koran,
baste with a light film of hamhock grease, coat with a batter of crispy bacon bits whipped in a froth of kosher egg whites, and then bake at 452 degrees Farenheit ~until gone.
Serves 6 billion.
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