The Buddha Meets Holger Danske
by Baron Bodissey
Here’s a an Easter Day change of pace for everyone: the interaction of Buddhism and Islam, and the fate of Tibetan Buddhists, as reported from Denmark.
Steen recommended this Good Friday article from Sappho, a Danish online magazine. Kepiblanc volunteered to do the translation. Both deserve our thanks.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The Buddha Meets Holger Danske
Almost all the harm inflicted upon Buddhism throughout history has been caused by Islam, says Ole Nydahl. He finds it embarrassing that Buddhists never defended themselves. Muslim extremists now threaten Buddhists with renewed violence.
By Lars Hedegaard
It is hard to hide the fact that Ole Nydahl is a Buddhist lama, i.e. a person authorized to convey the teachings carried on from teacher to pupil since the days of Buddha. He holds a prominent position within a special branch of Tibetan Buddhism known as the Kagyu tradition, and Sappho met him in one of the Kagyu Buddhists’ beautiful buildings on Svanemølle Road in the middle of Copenhagen’s embassy district. But with respect to relations with other religions, Nydahl refuses to describe himself as a lama. Buddha lived 2,450 years ago and accordingly didn’t express any opinion on religions such as Christendom and Islam; consequently Ole Nydahl — in his role as a Buddhist teacher — will not do so either. However, as a “responsible, thinking man” Ole Nydahl will happily speak out.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Muslims threaten Dalai Lama and “Buddhist pagans”
According to a report dated April 4th. 2007 from the internet portal Asia News the Islamic extremist group Lashkar-e-Toiba, located in the Pakistan-dominated part of Kashmir, issued threats against expatriate leader of Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama. Lashkar-e-Toiba is among the most powerful Islamic groups in Southeast Asia. It has been connected with several deadly onslaughts throughout India and is allegedly connected to Al-Qaeda.
The threats against the Dalai Lama were surprising because the prominent Buddhist leader on several occasions praised Islam as being a peaceful religion.
The Dharamsala Police in Northern India, where the Dalai Lama lives, take the threats seriously and have enhanced their security precautions.
Those threats are in accordance with the anti-Buddhist campaign mentioned by Osama bin Laden in his speech on the Arabic TV network Al-Jazeera on April 23, 2006. Besides the usual threats against “crusaders”, countries supporting Denmark in its conflict over the Mohammed cartoons, the United Nations, etc., his message contained a specific reference to Buddhists. It was delivered when he spoke about the UN Security Council which Osama bin Laden accused of excluding Islamic nations all the while granting the rights of veto to “Crusaders of the world and Buddhist pagans.”
Lashkar-e-Toiba — a.k.a. Jama’at-ud-Da’awa — was instrumental in the row over Jyllands-Posten’s Mohammed cartoons. The founder of that group, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, was arrested by Pakistani Authorities in February 2006 in order to prevent further rage among anti-Danish demonstrators.
— LH
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
During our conversation with Ole Nydahl, his wife Hannah — his companion through good times and bad since they both converted to Buddhism during a visit to the Himalayas in the 1960s — was under intensive care in another room. Hannah Nydahl — who, together with Ole, founded 520 Buddhist centers all over the free world and traveled the world for more than thirty years — was terminally ill with cancer and unable to walk anymore.
Hannah Nydahl died on April 1st, 2007.
But Ole Nydahl did not see any reason to cancel the interview. The work — the battle — goes on in spite of all the grief of this world. And that’s the impression one gets when reading his books. In the book Riding the Tiger with the subtitle Twenty Years on the Road: The Risks and Joys of Bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the West, soon to be published in Danish as Over alle grænser he tells about a 1974 visit to Denmark by a delegation of prominent Tibetan Buddhists headed by The 16th Karmapa. Nydahl arranged for his guests to be introduced to the old Nordic gods and the Saga heroes, whose ideals of courage and “the stiff upper lip” he finds more relevant than ever in a time of “empty sensitivity, lack of style, and profound confusion”.
Karmapa was given the opportunity to visit Holger Danske at Kronborg. Holger is — writes Ole Nydahl — “our national guardian and deserves the best only. He defeated the muslim Arabs in the Pyrenees and saved the freedom of Europe .”
Sappho is certainly visiting a religious leader with some “oomph”.
Potentials of the mind
Q: During a lecture you gave a few days ago here in Copenhagen, you expressed the idea that religious and cultural knowledge might be lost?
“Yes, several cultures with different views of the mind’s potential have disappeared in our time. The mind is without borders and sometimes varying circumstances can establish connections between certain characteristics. When the bearers of culture disappear, the knowledge associated with culture dies with them. Just look at our Greenlanders [Danish Inuit citizens — translator’s note].
- - - - - - - - - -
“We live in times characterized by incredible trivialization and forgetfulness about our values. Here in Scandinavia it’s a bit better than most places in the world, but it’s really a shame that people generally don’t exploit the potential of the mind.”
Q: Many of us can remember the time when we had neither Islam nor Buddhism in this country. Now we’ve experienced an influx of ideas, completely alien to our culture.
“The humanitarian and democratic parts of Buddhism were never strange to us. It’s in our constitution. As opposed to the teachings of the nature of mind. To realize that we can only see perfection outside ourselves because we already harbor that condition makes perfect sense. Meaning and purpose become evident, and we can work our way towards a consciousness that is beneficial to everyone. That option of evolution is open to everybody.”
Q: At the same time we’re witnessing the opposite development with the spread of the Islamic law-religion, founded on the idea that one has to volunteer into submission under strict rules dictating everything such as what to think, believe and do.
“To say it plainly, it’s really embarrassing that people — after 2,000 years of development towards freedom here in Europe — cannot comprehend their potential, don’t trust themselves, or are so badly disabled in childhood that they cast away their free will and enslave themselves under a totalitarian and fascist system. Surely, it’s pure fascism to subordinate oneself to other people in that way — no matter if it’s under a deity dictating what to do, a prophet, Hitler or Stalin. It’s always the same. Whenever you deny people their freedom of choice and self-determination, you reduce them to inferior beings.”
Q: But people do that to themselves?
“Yes, first they do it themselves. Then, the system forces them into permanent submission.”
The Pack-poison
Q: How to explain the human desire for submission?
“Aldous Huxley, whom I studied extensively at the university, called it ‘pack-poison’. If a lot of people do something it will attract others who want to belong or be a part of something. And if a start like this is sufficiently deviant it will always be attractive to certain unstable individuals. That is the reason why something originally in conflicting with human nature in the end can grow powerful, and accordingly very harmful.”
Q: What can we do to counter this?
“We must see to it that things are in the open. We must insist, at the least, that people who want to exploit their own humanity — and who therefore can turn dangerous to those who want to stay free — be humiliated, ridiculed and truly exposed. Which means that they can be dealt with just like anyone else. If you grant those people a hiding place and claim that they are protected from any banter in order avoid the ire of some prophet, then we’ve let go of the freedom of our future generations. We can very well describe it as a cancer, if you accept that people are not allowed to think and see things as they are. It’s something that conflicts with the general trend in society. This malignancy must be opposed by showing people who choose submission that there are other options — in case they develop an appetite for living.”
Destruction of Buddhism
Q: Can you describe in detail the relation of Buddhism vs. Islam?
“Almost all the destruction suffered by Buddhist culture has happened through Islam. In their persecution of polytheism they were unable to distinguish between the Brahmans and the Buddhists. They saw a lot of god-paintings and assumed that Buddhist worshipped them as exterior forces. Our paintings and statues don’t depict gods, however, but entities of energy enabling super-personal and liberating experiences.
“If we go Southward in Afghanistan from Mazar-i-Sharif and down to Kandahar and then East, we’ll find the old Buddhist core district destroyed by three Muslim invasions during the 900 to 1100 years. That was Ashoka’s old habitat where Buddhism originated. Thereafter Islam began to penetrate down through India. And, according to new Indian research, the Muslims killed some 80 million Indians from A.D. 1200 up until the English stopped it around 1700. We’re talking about Buddhists, Hindus, Jainists and others. If you peruse Arabian sources the term “budh” — the root word of Buddha and Buddhism — is someone worshipping many gods and whom Mohammed says must be killed, no matter what. Can’t even get dhimmi-status. Furthermore, the original Buddhist ‘little road’ through Central Asia was destroyed by Muslims. So, it goes without saying that Islam has caused us many ‘blessings’ throughout time.”
Embarrassing pacifism
Q: Why didn’t the Buddhists fight back?
“Having a waterproof, completely logical system is very dangerous. In that case you’ll have a tendency to bring all your friends with you into an ivory tower and forget all the ordinary people running around down below. What will people do if they worship a religion resembling a Swiss cheese — full of holes and stripped of logic and thus standing on feet of clay? — Well, the more porous a religion is the more you’ll try to convince others in order to convince yourself. That’s the old principle: billions of flies eat manure, billions of flies can’t be wrong.”
Ole Nydahl emphasizes that there is nothing wrong with Jesus encouraging his adherents to make all people his disciples. He himself tries to convince people of the blessings of Buddhism. What he rejects is the practice of convincing pagans with swords.
Q: No examples of Buddhists in arms? — They adhered to a radical pacifism?
“Yes, I’m afraid it’s so. I am not aware of any resistance toward aggression. And that’s really embarrassing when you see your wife, your children, your loved ones, your friends being butchered, and you haven’t armed yourself to protect them. Must be terrible.”
Q: Is that something being discussed among Buddhists today, that you should have done something?
“There are two factions. To the South we find the Therevada Buddhism opposing any sort of violence because suffering to them liberates people from bad karma. On the other hand, the Northern School claims that a bodhisattva must protect others — even if it brings suffering to the attacker. For example, we have a story about Buddha killing a man who tried to kill 500 others. The best choice, according to instinct. So, if you really feel compassion — and are yourself without confusing sentiments — then you must interfere. I know from personal experience that I react instinctively. I was a boxer for four years and I’m pretty strong. If someone small, a woman especially, gets bullied by someone bigger, I’m at it immediately.
Q: The question is : can you lose your tradition?
“My school of Buddhism — the diamond road — can very well be lost. It can survive only as long as one can find people with a rich inner life, who through meditation have achieved a certain level of insight, and lamas who can convey knowledge on the nature of mind. In 1959 — following the Chinese conquest of Tibet — some 85,000 people survived by escaping down the mountains into India. 5,000 were educated, had had inner experiences, and had preserved a variety of the Buddha’s teachings, and they died so rapidly from tuberculosis that the bonfires of incineration never extinguished. My wife and I arrived in 1968, just in time to get acquainted with the great teachers from the Kagyu line of meditation. A few years later — from around 1970 to mid-1980 — almost everyone was dead.”
Ole Nydahl emphasizes that as opposed to Southern Buddhism — which he thinks will survive as long its scriptures are conserved — the Northern Tibetan Buddhism — and especially the survival of the “diamond road” is dependant on the direct, verbatim delivery from teacher to pupil.
Q: When Westerners came to Tibet they quickly realized that it was a rather nasty place with slavery, oppression, poverty, class structure, draconian punishment etc.. How does that play with Buddhism?
“We don’t seek refuge in anything from Tibet. It was a medieval society — like Europe around 1450. The only thing of interest to us is the transference of those teachings Buddha gave his smartest students. That wisdom was preserved in India for 1,500 years, lived on thereafter for 900 years in Tibet until 1959 — and now it’s here. I really like the East Tibetans — the Kampas — proud, Viking-like warriors who kept the Chinese and other foes out all through that time.”
Q: We could use a bit of their spirit in contemporary Denmark.
“We have it. Several of my students have joined the National Guard. That’s a good place for young people if they feel that our country is in danger. If I were a bit more in Denmark — and if I were under 65 — I’d join, too.”
Steen recommended this Good Friday article from Sappho, a Danish online magazine. Kepiblanc volunteered to do the translation. Both deserve our thanks.
The Buddha Meets Holger Danske
Almost all the harm inflicted upon Buddhism throughout history has been caused by Islam, says Ole Nydahl. He finds it embarrassing that Buddhists never defended themselves. Muslim extremists now threaten Buddhists with renewed violence.
By Lars Hedegaard
It is hard to hide the fact that Ole Nydahl is a Buddhist lama, i.e. a person authorized to convey the teachings carried on from teacher to pupil since the days of Buddha. He holds a prominent position within a special branch of Tibetan Buddhism known as the Kagyu tradition, and Sappho met him in one of the Kagyu Buddhists’ beautiful buildings on Svanemølle Road in the middle of Copenhagen’s embassy district. But with respect to relations with other religions, Nydahl refuses to describe himself as a lama. Buddha lived 2,450 years ago and accordingly didn’t express any opinion on religions such as Christendom and Islam; consequently Ole Nydahl — in his role as a Buddhist teacher — will not do so either. However, as a “responsible, thinking man” Ole Nydahl will happily speak out.Muslims threaten Dalai Lama and “Buddhist pagans”
According to a report dated April 4th. 2007 from the internet portal Asia News the Islamic extremist group Lashkar-e-Toiba, located in the Pakistan-dominated part of Kashmir, issued threats against expatriate leader of Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama. Lashkar-e-Toiba is among the most powerful Islamic groups in Southeast Asia. It has been connected with several deadly onslaughts throughout India and is allegedly connected to Al-Qaeda.
The threats against the Dalai Lama were surprising because the prominent Buddhist leader on several occasions praised Islam as being a peaceful religion.
The Dharamsala Police in Northern India, where the Dalai Lama lives, take the threats seriously and have enhanced their security precautions.
Those threats are in accordance with the anti-Buddhist campaign mentioned by Osama bin Laden in his speech on the Arabic TV network Al-Jazeera on April 23, 2006. Besides the usual threats against “crusaders”, countries supporting Denmark in its conflict over the Mohammed cartoons, the United Nations, etc., his message contained a specific reference to Buddhists. It was delivered when he spoke about the UN Security Council which Osama bin Laden accused of excluding Islamic nations all the while granting the rights of veto to “Crusaders of the world and Buddhist pagans.”
Lashkar-e-Toiba — a.k.a. Jama’at-ud-Da’awa — was instrumental in the row over Jyllands-Posten’s Mohammed cartoons. The founder of that group, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, was arrested by Pakistani Authorities in February 2006 in order to prevent further rage among anti-Danish demonstrators.
— LH
During our conversation with Ole Nydahl, his wife Hannah — his companion through good times and bad since they both converted to Buddhism during a visit to the Himalayas in the 1960s — was under intensive care in another room. Hannah Nydahl — who, together with Ole, founded 520 Buddhist centers all over the free world and traveled the world for more than thirty years — was terminally ill with cancer and unable to walk anymore.
Hannah Nydahl died on April 1st, 2007.
But Ole Nydahl did not see any reason to cancel the interview. The work — the battle — goes on in spite of all the grief of this world. And that’s the impression one gets when reading his books. In the book Riding the Tiger with the subtitle Twenty Years on the Road: The Risks and Joys of Bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the West, soon to be published in Danish as Over alle grænser he tells about a 1974 visit to Denmark by a delegation of prominent Tibetan Buddhists headed by The 16th Karmapa. Nydahl arranged for his guests to be introduced to the old Nordic gods and the Saga heroes, whose ideals of courage and “the stiff upper lip” he finds more relevant than ever in a time of “empty sensitivity, lack of style, and profound confusion”.
Karmapa was given the opportunity to visit Holger Danske at Kronborg. Holger is — writes Ole Nydahl — “our national guardian and deserves the best only. He defeated the muslim Arabs in the Pyrenees and saved the freedom of Europe .”Sappho is certainly visiting a religious leader with some “oomph”.
Potentials of the mind
Q: During a lecture you gave a few days ago here in Copenhagen, you expressed the idea that religious and cultural knowledge might be lost?
“Yes, several cultures with different views of the mind’s potential have disappeared in our time. The mind is without borders and sometimes varying circumstances can establish connections between certain characteristics. When the bearers of culture disappear, the knowledge associated with culture dies with them. Just look at our Greenlanders [Danish Inuit citizens — translator’s note].
- - - - - - - - - -
“We live in times characterized by incredible trivialization and forgetfulness about our values. Here in Scandinavia it’s a bit better than most places in the world, but it’s really a shame that people generally don’t exploit the potential of the mind.”
Q: Many of us can remember the time when we had neither Islam nor Buddhism in this country. Now we’ve experienced an influx of ideas, completely alien to our culture.
“The humanitarian and democratic parts of Buddhism were never strange to us. It’s in our constitution. As opposed to the teachings of the nature of mind. To realize that we can only see perfection outside ourselves because we already harbor that condition makes perfect sense. Meaning and purpose become evident, and we can work our way towards a consciousness that is beneficial to everyone. That option of evolution is open to everybody.”
Q: At the same time we’re witnessing the opposite development with the spread of the Islamic law-religion, founded on the idea that one has to volunteer into submission under strict rules dictating everything such as what to think, believe and do.
“To say it plainly, it’s really embarrassing that people — after 2,000 years of development towards freedom here in Europe — cannot comprehend their potential, don’t trust themselves, or are so badly disabled in childhood that they cast away their free will and enslave themselves under a totalitarian and fascist system. Surely, it’s pure fascism to subordinate oneself to other people in that way — no matter if it’s under a deity dictating what to do, a prophet, Hitler or Stalin. It’s always the same. Whenever you deny people their freedom of choice and self-determination, you reduce them to inferior beings.”
Q: But people do that to themselves?
“Yes, first they do it themselves. Then, the system forces them into permanent submission.”
The Pack-poison
Q: How to explain the human desire for submission?
“Aldous Huxley, whom I studied extensively at the university, called it ‘pack-poison’. If a lot of people do something it will attract others who want to belong or be a part of something. And if a start like this is sufficiently deviant it will always be attractive to certain unstable individuals. That is the reason why something originally in conflicting with human nature in the end can grow powerful, and accordingly very harmful.”
Q: What can we do to counter this?
“We must see to it that things are in the open. We must insist, at the least, that people who want to exploit their own humanity — and who therefore can turn dangerous to those who want to stay free — be humiliated, ridiculed and truly exposed. Which means that they can be dealt with just like anyone else. If you grant those people a hiding place and claim that they are protected from any banter in order avoid the ire of some prophet, then we’ve let go of the freedom of our future generations. We can very well describe it as a cancer, if you accept that people are not allowed to think and see things as they are. It’s something that conflicts with the general trend in society. This malignancy must be opposed by showing people who choose submission that there are other options — in case they develop an appetite for living.”
Destruction of Buddhism
Q: Can you describe in detail the relation of Buddhism vs. Islam?“Almost all the destruction suffered by Buddhist culture has happened through Islam. In their persecution of polytheism they were unable to distinguish between the Brahmans and the Buddhists. They saw a lot of god-paintings and assumed that Buddhist worshipped them as exterior forces. Our paintings and statues don’t depict gods, however, but entities of energy enabling super-personal and liberating experiences.
“If we go Southward in Afghanistan from Mazar-i-Sharif and down to Kandahar and then East, we’ll find the old Buddhist core district destroyed by three Muslim invasions during the 900 to 1100 years. That was Ashoka’s old habitat where Buddhism originated. Thereafter Islam began to penetrate down through India. And, according to new Indian research, the Muslims killed some 80 million Indians from A.D. 1200 up until the English stopped it around 1700. We’re talking about Buddhists, Hindus, Jainists and others. If you peruse Arabian sources the term “budh” — the root word of Buddha and Buddhism — is someone worshipping many gods and whom Mohammed says must be killed, no matter what. Can’t even get dhimmi-status. Furthermore, the original Buddhist ‘little road’ through Central Asia was destroyed by Muslims. So, it goes without saying that Islam has caused us many ‘blessings’ throughout time.”
Embarrassing pacifism
Q: Why didn’t the Buddhists fight back?
“Having a waterproof, completely logical system is very dangerous. In that case you’ll have a tendency to bring all your friends with you into an ivory tower and forget all the ordinary people running around down below. What will people do if they worship a religion resembling a Swiss cheese — full of holes and stripped of logic and thus standing on feet of clay? — Well, the more porous a religion is the more you’ll try to convince others in order to convince yourself. That’s the old principle: billions of flies eat manure, billions of flies can’t be wrong.”Ole Nydahl emphasizes that there is nothing wrong with Jesus encouraging his adherents to make all people his disciples. He himself tries to convince people of the blessings of Buddhism. What he rejects is the practice of convincing pagans with swords.
Q: No examples of Buddhists in arms? — They adhered to a radical pacifism?
“Yes, I’m afraid it’s so. I am not aware of any resistance toward aggression. And that’s really embarrassing when you see your wife, your children, your loved ones, your friends being butchered, and you haven’t armed yourself to protect them. Must be terrible.”
Q: Is that something being discussed among Buddhists today, that you should have done something?
“There are two factions. To the South we find the Therevada Buddhism opposing any sort of violence because suffering to them liberates people from bad karma. On the other hand, the Northern School claims that a bodhisattva must protect others — even if it brings suffering to the attacker. For example, we have a story about Buddha killing a man who tried to kill 500 others. The best choice, according to instinct. So, if you really feel compassion — and are yourself without confusing sentiments — then you must interfere. I know from personal experience that I react instinctively. I was a boxer for four years and I’m pretty strong. If someone small, a woman especially, gets bullied by someone bigger, I’m at it immediately.
Q: The question is : can you lose your tradition?
“My school of Buddhism — the diamond road — can very well be lost. It can survive only as long as one can find people with a rich inner life, who through meditation have achieved a certain level of insight, and lamas who can convey knowledge on the nature of mind. In 1959 — following the Chinese conquest of Tibet — some 85,000 people survived by escaping down the mountains into India. 5,000 were educated, had had inner experiences, and had preserved a variety of the Buddha’s teachings, and they died so rapidly from tuberculosis that the bonfires of incineration never extinguished. My wife and I arrived in 1968, just in time to get acquainted with the great teachers from the Kagyu line of meditation. A few years later — from around 1970 to mid-1980 — almost everyone was dead.”Ole Nydahl emphasizes that as opposed to Southern Buddhism — which he thinks will survive as long its scriptures are conserved — the Northern Tibetan Buddhism — and especially the survival of the “diamond road” is dependant on the direct, verbatim delivery from teacher to pupil.
Q: When Westerners came to Tibet they quickly realized that it was a rather nasty place with slavery, oppression, poverty, class structure, draconian punishment etc.. How does that play with Buddhism?
“We don’t seek refuge in anything from Tibet. It was a medieval society — like Europe around 1450. The only thing of interest to us is the transference of those teachings Buddha gave his smartest students. That wisdom was preserved in India for 1,500 years, lived on thereafter for 900 years in Tibet until 1959 — and now it’s here. I really like the East Tibetans — the Kampas — proud, Viking-like warriors who kept the Chinese and other foes out all through that time.”
Q: We could use a bit of their spirit in contemporary Denmark.
“We have it. Several of my students have joined the National Guard. That’s a good place for young people if they feel that our country is in danger. If I were a bit more in Denmark — and if I were under 65 — I’d join, too.”
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Baron Bodissey | 4/08/2007 06:50:00 PM
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I like the Buddha a hell of a lot better than Mohammad, but I wouldn't die for either one's thoughts.
If suicidal fatalism becomes part of a belief, it dooms itself, however noble it seems, (conceptually).
The early, pacificistic Christians tried to follow Jesus's example exactly, to the point of allowing the Romans to slaughter them in the arena.
After a while, you realize: this sounds good in theory, but, when lions and gladiators start tearing your wife and children to bloody shreds, the instincts awaken to the fact that:
ideas that cause you to let a beast kill you are dumb ideas.
You cede to the beast a greater worth than yourself, or your family.
I'll take survival, and worry about the karma later.
First, May Hannah Nydahl find Nirvana.
If the Islamists ever try to subjugate the Cambodian Buddhists, they will have a fight on their hands. Evidently, from what Ole Nydahl says they are part of the Northern School. It was my privilege to work with some Cambodians in South Viet Nam in 1969, those guys struck pure terror into the hearts of the VC & NVA. Maybe they are bad Buddhists, but there it is.
Just a “Half-assed Buddha”
Wow, great piece...
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
please fight over me
claim I want this or that
just don't let people be
.
Dude,
What about Kung Fu? All those Shao Lin monks are Buddhist monks. I want to see "Shao Lin vs Islam"!
Baron,
I heard about this on the radio and was looking for a link so I could blog it. Nothing came up in my searches. Thanks so much for seeing it and doing a post.
I'm still writing so it will go up a little later. Your H/T is already included.
I used to be a student of Ole Nydahl. He teaches good "entry level" Tibetan Buddhism, although I think there are better alternatives out there.
Mr. Nydahl does have some insight, though. He talked about the dangers of Islam long before things became evident, already at least 10-15 years ago. Sadly, things have only gone for the worse during that period. For a Buddhist teacher, he is very outspoken. It does not make him very popular among other Buddhist organizations, though.
I am not sure about this division into "Southern" and "Northern" Buddhism. The Southern ones (Theravada) seem at least as capable of defending themselves as the Northern ones (Mahayana). Cambodia is actually a Theravada country, likewise Sri Lanka and Thailand. Remember, Thailand has a capital punishment for drug dealers, even though it is supposedly a deeply Buddhist country.
Tibetans also tried to fight the Chinese, but they had neglected their army, so it was a piece of cake for the Chinese. The uprising of Khampas of Eastern Tibet (and later some help from the CIA) did hurt the Communists, though.
The way I see it, much of Western Europe is already beyond a point of no return. Countries like Holland, Belgium, Germany and Sweden will be Islamic before mid-century. For the outspoken Danes, there is light at the end of tunnel, though. The rest of Europe - those countries wanting to remain free - need to copy the Danish immigration laws.
profitsbeard, The early, pacificistic Christians tried to follow Jesus's example exactly, to the point of allowing the Romans to slaughter them in the arena
And when Jesus was preparing to leave the Apostles, He said to them (Luke XXII:35)
"When I sent you forth without purse, and wallet, and shoes, lacked ye anything? And they said, Nothing.
"And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword."
It is one thing to forego revenge, or to meekly accept insults. It is another thing to lay naked in front of a pack of wolves
It was possible for Christians to be pacifists when they were generally under the protection of the Roman Peace (as long as they kept their mouths shut). It was a quite different story then human wolf packs roamed, and anyone unwilling to defend himself, died.
The survivors were the ones with a willingness to kill in self defense, or who put themselves under the protection of such a person
He does bring up a good point. I've studied only a bit of Buddhism. But what to do when you see another being physically harmed? Do you allow it, or do you defend them at the risk of harming the attacker? And what if you are attacked for your central beliefs.
Of course, I don't believe Jesus was a pacifist either. So maybe it's just my inner beliefs getting in the way.
well one point which at least is right, is the point that the west is superficial. I absolutely agree - as I see it, the basic problem is actually not the muslims, but the fact that west has almost forgot the basic faith in democracy, philosophy, christianity and nation.
If we had kept our faith, we would not have come to this point. And I really do believe, that if we find our faith again, the moslem menace would be over in a forthnight.
The true enemy is not outside, it is inside.
I mean, I have been pondering why Oriana Fallaci wrote a book called "The force of reason" - and my conclusion is, that she somehow tried to tell us, that we should believe in reason. Use reason as a weapon, as our forefathers have before us.
Ask questions like:
- So the islamic creed upholds the notion that everybody should submit to their god. Why? How do they prove that? By the Koran? Well how do they know the Koran to be the word of God?
- If they cannot prove that, well then it is all fake and superstition, or what?
- Moslems say that Mohammad was told the Koran by God. Well how do they prove that? And if they cannot prove that the Koran was made by God through Mohammad, well is´nt all just a load of bs?
- The christian faith have pondered and discussed these matteres for ages, and have answers - the moslems do not, and are therefor extemely vulnerable on this point.
- If you bring down allah, the whole system goes down the drain.
Or perhaps moslems start an enlightment, that was what happened to us.
Tours732: “Cambodia is actually a Theravada country, likewise Sri Lanka and Thailand.”
Makes sense why Thailand has had so many Buddhists murdered in 3 years…as many as have died fighting in Iraq since the fracas began 4 years ago. If you’re that peacful, even at your own expense, then it’s not surprising to expect anything else…
Profitsbeard: “…ideas that cause you to let a beast kill you are dumb ideas.”
That doesn’t render ALL ideas of the speaker dumb, however…and I don’t recall Jesus being THAT specific about pacifism, other than “give him the other cheek.” He still managed to prevent the death of an ‘alleged’ adulterer by an angry mob by stating “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
Although I’m agnositc, I consider Jesus, and Socrates for that matter, two of my greatest moral and ethical inspirations. And both died for their beliefs, but didn’t put others’ in that situation that I recall. I’d do the same, even if for different reasons than theirs.
Einhejrer: “[t]he basic problem is actually not the muslims, but the fact that west has almost forgot the basic faith in democracy, philosophy, christianity and nation.”
I think we need to reinstate SERIOUS civics/history classes, taught by actual HISTORIANS, to remind people of these fundamentals. The US can easily tap into the Masons for this effort, as they belong to a group whose earlier members participated in the Revolution that began the New World Order: a country run as a republic, not as a monarchy or other tyranny, where no single religion or philosophy dominates the political landscape. Our Founding Fathers were brilliant in their creation…and we are in another fight for individual freedoms.
Dear Kafir Kelbeh
I absolutely agree.
You guys in the US are a little lucky because of you constitution and history - the US constitution is almost written by Socrates.
While as here in Europe we are easely distracted by different ideas and bits of history.
We do however have our tradition for philosophy, there are still some good philosophers in France, Denmark, Germany.
People are searching for new ideas and solutions, so perhaps one day a little pebble thrown down the slide will grow to an avalance.
Who knows, this could end up in a new enlightning in the west.
That would be our saving.
einhejrer -
in which country are you living?
i too am very hopeful in a new european enlightenment.
call me idealist, but i see enough 'regular' people standing up for freedom that i am quite proud of my european ancestry...
Yes, I agree, the question of violence against a weak and frail person (say a tiny infant) in your presence is very distressing and provokes our hearts. Without question. I suggest that persons inclined towards Buddhism investigate a small sect named the Jains. Like Buddhists, they are indigenous to India, not foreign like Hindus.
In essence, Jains allow for defense. In addition, they posit that where we stand, what happens to us, is a product of many lives of our own thought. Hard sayings? Yes. Please check it out as a natural balance to Buddhism.
I met Ole Nydahl a few years back at a symposium in Chicago sponsored by Northwestern University. After his presentation Ole offered all present an opportunity to come down and meet him where he would bow and touch heads with each participant. I went down to meet him and received a double head butt! He musta known how thick-headed I am.
Anyway it is confusing to me on whether or not a "buddhist" can or should become aggressive when being attacked. I kind of agree with Ole Nydahl when he talks about using your instincts. It makes good sense but I have not done much practice (meditation) myself and I speak from a fairly disrupted mind. Perhaps it does not matter but it does seem a shame to not defend something that may be of lasting value.
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